# Police and EMT's scuffle after police stop ambulance transporting patient (video) - who is at fault **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287 "2009-05-31T22:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/1 "2009-05-31T22:14:44Z")
[Per this story](http://www.policelink.com/news/articles/106718-highway-patrol-paramedics-argument-caught-on-tape?page=1&utm_content=pl_r1_20090529_paramedics&utm_source=nlet)who is at fault in this scenario? [Written statements after the fact by EMTs](http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0509/626636.html) I originally saw this on FARK and some members making comments blame the police for being jerks and others blame the EMTs for arguing with the officers. Who is at fault here? ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/2 "2009-06-01T00:05:42Z")
I’d put most of the blame on the officers. First of all there was nothing so urgent about the possible traffic ticket that the officer needed to pull over the ambulance while they were transporting a patient. Second, if the officer was not in fact using his siren, he shouldn’t get mad when people don’t notice him right away. That said, it probably would have been best if the medic had stayed in the back with the patient. The medic also wrote an excellent incident report, for what it’s worth. St. Urho Paramedic ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/3 "2009-06-01T00:10:24Z")
This was covered on CNN. The consensus seemed to be that you do not pull over an ambulance with a patient inside, for a routine traffic violation. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/4 "2009-06-01T00:15:57Z")
> [@St.Urho](#): > > First of all there was nothing so urgent about the possible traffic ticket that the officer needed to pull over the ambulance while they were transporting a patient. Since the ambulance did not have its emergency lighting or siren activated, how exactly were the police to know a patient was being transported? I wonder what the cops’ side of things is. It looks pretty bad for them right now, and police are generally quick to publicize any small shred that might vindicate their position, so the deafening silence probably says something. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/5 "2009-06-01T00:26:00Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Since the ambulance did not have its emergency lighting or siren activated, how exactly were the police to know a patient was being transported? If the ambulence’s lights/siren were not on, that doesn’t mean there was no patient. It just means the trip isn’t critical enough to require such extreme measures. I was transported to a hospital once in an ambulance. It was an emergency, I was in pain, but the paramedics didn’t feel my injury was life-threatening and they didn’t turn on any lights or siren. They stopped at every traffic light and stop sign. This whole incident is strange. I thought police and paramedics were supposed to be working together to help the public, not fight with each other at the public’s expense. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/6 "2009-06-01T01:35:36Z")
The paramedic clearly believes the problem was due to a gesture by the ambulance driver that the policeman incorrectly interpreted as “flipping him off”. This sounds quite plausible (and matches my experience that one of the things those in authority most hate is any hint of disrespect). ---
**Author:** ![Khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@Khan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/7 "2009-06-01T01:41:57Z")
After seeing the expression on the patrolman’s face while he squeezed the medic’s windpipe, I think that any arguments in the OHP’s favor are only academic. Someone with that little restraint shouldn’t be trusted with any authority, much less a firearm. The medic wasn’t some car thief he cornered in an alley after a 20 mile chase down the freeway, he was a medical professional doing his job. Whether or not the crew was using lights and sirens is immaterial. The patrolman should lose his badge and be charged with assault, minimum. ---
**Author:** ![IAmNotSpartacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@IAmNotSpartacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IAmNotSpartacus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/8 "2009-06-01T01:44:36Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > If the ambulence’s lights/siren were not on, that doesn’t mean there was no patient. It just means the trip isn’t critical enough to require such extreme measures. That’s great, but it does nothing to address the question of how police are supposed to know an ambulance that’s not going code-3 is transporting a patient before pulling them over. ---
**Author:** ![Khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@Khan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/9 "2009-06-01T02:13:55Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > That’s great, but it does nothing to address the question of how police are supposed to know an ambulance that’s not going code-3 is transporting a patient before pulling them over. Stopping the ambulance isn’t the issue here. I bet this wouldn’t have made the news if the officer had just let them go after finding out they had a patient. The problem is the officer first threatening to arrest a member of the crew and then strangling him after he tried to reason with the officer. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/10 "2009-06-01T02:31:30Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > That’s great, but it does nothing to address the question of how police are supposed to know an ambulance that’s not going code-3 is transporting a patient before pulling them over. Uhhh, he could freaking ask after he pulled them over, then take a glance in the back ! Unless that police officers entire family like had died the day before, he should never have anything other than a desk job ever again, if even that. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/11 "2009-06-01T02:51:18Z")
> [@Khan](#): > > The patrolman should lose his badge and be charged with assault, minimum. From White’s report, it sounds like he will be pushing the issue. > [@Maurice White](#): > > Throughout the entire encounter after Officer 606 had physically assaulted me, and prevented me from maintaining any patient care, I repeatedly asked who I should contact to report the assault committed upon me by Officer 606. I was told several times by both officers that it was not their job to tell me who to contact to report an offending officer. I politely asked the question everal times since I found their answers to be somewhat incredulous. After the fourth request, I was told that I should contact the Okfuskee S.O. and the County D.A. Otherwise, the two new officers on the scene refused to hear my complaint against Officer 606. I was informed that “it is not our job to receive criminal complaints against another officer.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/12 "2009-06-01T03:12:27Z")
> [@Khan](#): > > Stopping the ambulance isn’t the issue here. I bet this wouldn’t have made the news if the officer had just let them go after finding out they had a patient. The problem is the officer first threatening to arrest a member of the crew and then strangling him after he tried to reason with the officer. I wouldn’t call it reasoning with the officer. However, I think it was justified. I have no clue what was running through officer grabby’s mind. I would think the sentence: “we’re transporting a patient” would have ended the conversation. What I don’t understand is that if they had 2 way radio communication then the police should have used that in the first place prior to passing them and the crew should have alerted them to the patient they were transporting to the hospital. I think the police were out of line and new it from the start because the officer walked the ambulance driver to the front of his vehicle instead of back to the cruiser. That alone is probably a breach of protocol because it negates the dash cam. Given that the police did not have their siren on I question the need to pass the ambulance in the first place. This could easily be case of abusing the use of their flashers and speeding on their part. They may find themselves with a speeding ticket if they can’t justify their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@Khan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/13 "2009-06-01T03:24:11Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > From White’s report, it sounds like he will be pushing the issue. My favorite part was Mr. White informing the officer that it was a felony to assault a paramedic in the line of duty. But it’s puzzling how they can’t take a complaint about a fellow officer who just strangled a “perp” in front of another officer. It’s not like throat-crushing is standard operating procedure. Is this some kind of thin blue line thing? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/14 "2009-06-01T03:24:17Z")
This part really REALLY bothers me: > [@](#): > > Note: One last very disturbing Fact. After we had arrived at Prague hospital, officer 606 told my partner, Paul Franks the he had determined in his mind to escalate to pulling his service revolver and using deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/15 "2009-06-01T06:03:36Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > Since the ambulance did not have its emergency lighting or siren activated, how exactly were the police to know a patient was being transported? First of all, emergent returns are fairly uncommon. I work in a big city, and I’ve done 1 in the last 2 weeks. I would think it would be pretty easy to tell if there were a patient in the back- you could look in the back window to see if there’s anyone in back. You could look in front- only 1 person in front with a uniform? Probably a patient in the back. They clearly had radio contact with the ambulance- why not just ask? Even if they didn’t have direct contact, the police dispatcher could have called the ambulance dispatcher to find out. Frankly, pulling over the ambulance is probably the hardest and slowest way to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/16 "2009-06-01T06:26:03Z")
I think a lawyer would have a field day with this. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/17 "2009-06-01T06:39:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I think a lawyer would have a field day with this. Nah. I think _at least_ one lawyer _will_ have a field day with this. Especially if the part about being willing to escalate to deadly force can be corroborated. That part really bothers me. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/18 "2009-06-01T06:51:38Z")
The cop was wrong but there is almost never an excuse to not do exactly as the cop says. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/19 "2009-06-01T06:57:37Z")
> [@tr0psn4j](#): > > The cop was wrong but there is almost never an excuse to not do exactly as the cop says. I can imagine plenty of reasons not to do ANYTHING that particular cop said. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287/20 "2009-06-01T07:08:51Z")
> [@tr0psn4j](#): > > The cop was wrong but there is almost never an excuse to not do exactly as the cop says. The cop was not just wrong, he was out of control. If he draws his gun, all bets are off. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-and-emts-scuffle-after-police-stop-ambulance-transporting-patient-video-who-is-at-fault/498287.md?page=2)