# Police beating in Philly **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2000, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576 "2000-07-14T16:44:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/81 "2000-07-19T01:28:13Z")
okay, theryan, i don’t know why you went into immediate asshole mode, but you did. so here’s my response. first of all, i had many problems with the arrest, but also many reservations about many complaints with the arrest. sorry i forgot to type an ‘s’ * * * ## said the ryan: What’s wrong with stopping once sufficient force has been applied? Should they have kept on hitting him after sufficient force had been applied? Should they have stopped before sufficient force had been applied? my point was that the officers only stopped after a supervisor came onto the scene. it had nothing to do with either suffiecient or insufficient force applied. it had to do with the fact that the officers fucked up, and only stopped when somebody who could inflict punishment onto them (unlike the suspect) arrived on the scene. ## quote: (of mine, posten by ryan) ## enough force was used that the suspect could have died the ryan: This doesn’t really have much bearing on the question of whether they applied more than sufficient force. If “sufficient force” brings with it the risk that the suspect dies, then the police are to take that risk. I don’t want the police refusing to shoot back just because “the suspect might die”. you dumbass. i know this isn’t a flame pit, but you toitally took my comment out of context. my point was that only sufficient force should be exercised. you bring up the fact that you don’t want “the police refusing to shoot back because the suspect might die”, but the suspect wasn’t shooting at the cops at the time, dumbass! force should be proportional to the risk the suspect presents. i am not satisfied that the suspect posed enough of a risk that the officers should have STOMPED on him repeatedly, over and over and over, which they did. quote: * * * ## my quote, posted by ryan what would have happened if the suspect had turned out to be the wrong person (pretty unlikely given the circumstances of the chase, but still a possibility), ryan’s quote Just what sort of scenario are you proposing? Are you saying that it’s possible that the person resisting arrest was not the person that stole the car? Yes, it certainly is. That’s what we have lawyers for. Did the guy accept arrest, and then call his lawyer, like an innocent person should have? No, he didn’t. Is it possible that the person resisting arrest was not the person resisting arrest? No, of course not. That’s absurd. When a cop first tries to arrest someone, they generally don’t know for sure whether the suspect did in fact commit a crime. Oncce the suspect resists arrest, however, the cops can be 100% sure that the suspect has committed at least one crime: resisting arrest. you fucking idiot! you start out by saying that the person who reisted arrest wasn’t the person who stole the car. not likely, since they pulled him out of the car. my point was that he may not have stolen the other car, and may not have shot the cop, both of which are still viable alternatives to the official line. as to the guy accepting arrest and then calling his lawyer, well his arrest entailed being beaten savagely by philadelphia officers, and i’ll bet you that he did call a lawyer afterwards. as for your claim that a cop is sure that a suspect is resisting arrest, i totally agree with you. however, is the penalty for resisting arrest being beaten savagely by a mob? i think not, you idiot. ## quote: ## again, me or if the suspect had been justified for doing what he did again, ryan You mean he honestly believed that he would be in physical danger is he accepted arrest? Such a claim would affect how I feel about the suspect, but it wouldn’t change how I felt about the cops. If someone were attacking me, I would want to immobilize him regardless of his motivation. no, numbnuts, my point was that he may not have been responsible for the attack of a cop, or carjacking, etc, which all of the officers assumed him to be when they started beating on his ass. ## quote: ## me: third, there is as of yet no evidence that the suspect shot another officer. him: I think that a more accurate statement would be “there is no proof that he shot an officer”. There also is no proof that he didn’t. If we’re going to accuse the cops of misconduct, then it seems to me that the burden of proof should be on the accusers. i agree with you there, you stupid dwoight. and in this case, the accusers are the POLICE AND THE STATE, as they usually are in criminal cases. hey, here’s some advice. go back to kindergarten, graduate, and then come back to the board. maybe then your comments will have ANY bearing on the discussion at hand. until then, shut your dumb mouth, theryan. ---
**Author:** ![Bluepony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Bluepony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bluepony)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/82 "2000-07-19T03:23:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by oldscratch \* > \*\*And of course being a Police officer isn’t even that dangerous. It’s one of the safer professions. > Of course that doesn’t stop cops from having a high rate of domestic abuse against their partners. 3 years ago the FOP lobbied against a bill that would have taken away the guns of abusive police men. Yeah, real great idea, let’s give someone who beats up and threatens their girlfrined a gun and a badge. \*\* I won’t even _dignify_ this drivel with a proper response. **PLDennison** Sorry about being touchy. It’s been a shaky week and I’m trying to cut back on the caffiene. Apparently it ain’t working too well. I’ll buy you a beer at jjjfishe’s party if it’s still on. ---
**Author:** ![Major\_Feelgud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3be4f8/32.png) [@Major\_Feelgud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Major_Feelgud)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/83 "2000-07-19T06:33:45Z")
After reading oldscratch’s response, I tried to imagine him as being the guy beaten up by the cops and I felt better. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/84 "2000-07-19T12:10:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jb\_farley \* > \*\*okay, theryan, i don’t know why you went into immediate asshole mode, but you did. \ you dumbass. i know this isn’t a flame pit, but \ dumbass! \ you fucking idiot! \ you idiot. \ numbnuts \ you stupid dwoight \ shut your dumb mouth, theryan. \*\* Really nice, **jb**. All those insults made you look _so very_ intelligent. **oldscratch** : jb\_farley’s post was so much _less_ objectionable than yours, I hardly know what to say. Can you provide any cites concerning the relative safety of law enforcement as a career? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/85 "2000-07-19T14:36:15Z")
Oh, sure. I get my post yanked by the moderator for calling someone a “jackass” and JB gets to call someone a “fucking idiot.” forget police brutality, what about Moderator Brutality? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/86 "2000-07-19T15:48:08Z")
That’s because no one’s notified them yet. No doubt someone’s going to get a sound thrashing for posting Pit-like material in GD. Really uncalled for anyway, IMHO. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/87 "2000-07-19T17:31:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jb\_farley \* > \*\*okay, theryan, i don’t know why you went into immediate asshole mode, but you did. \ you dumbass. i know this isn’t a flame pit, but \ dumbass! \ you fucking idiot! \ you idiot. \ numbnuts \ you stupid dwoight \ shut your dumb mouth, theryan. \*\* * * * ## Really nice, **jb**. All those insults made you look _so very_ intelligent. Well, it’s pretty obvious what happened here. It’s common for a person to resort to name-calling when they have little of substance to say. Evidently, **jb\_farley** couldn’t handle the fact that **theRyan** made some pretty insightful arguments. I can see it now: (Bush): Well, I think vouchers are a good idea because… (Gore): You fucking turd! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/88 "2000-07-20T00:22:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Major Feelgud \* > \*\*After reading oldscratch’s response, I tried to imagine him as being the guy beaten up by the cops and I felt better. \*\* Well this is probably going to the pit anyway. But, I’ll refrain. You know what. How about this, if you ever ever, come up with an intelligent thought, let me know. All you seem to be able to call me a liberal, a term you should know I take great offense at. I think what really hurt was the hippie bit though. That was just plain mean. Now go off and play with the other 12 year olds on your block. ---
**Author:** ![Major\_Feelgud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3be4f8/32.png) [@Major\_Feelgud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Major_Feelgud)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/89 "2000-07-20T04:57:05Z")
Old Scratchy: Come on, that was a joke! ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/90 "2000-07-20T05:23:29Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] As others have noted, **jb\_farley** , that was _way_ over the line. I trust you can keep your insults in the Pit and your debates in GD. I’m leaving the post here since so many have commented on it, but I would advise you to NOT do something like this again. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/91 "2000-07-20T06:46:06Z")
yes, to all (especially the ryan and gaudere) i apologize. it was the end of a long day, and i have been having some rather, how shall we say, heated debates earlier. the ryan, i still think you posted some stupid stuff, but at the very least i could have simply called it stupid stuff. i owe you all some modicum of respect, no matter how much i may disagree with you. gaudere, don’t worry. i won’t make you have to stop this thing and turn it right around, and you don’t have to come back here. everybody, my sincere apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/92 "2000-07-20T09:01:18Z")
I am looking at it this way: A dozen ppeople in a mob could, in 30 seconds, literally tear someone limb-from-limb if they wanted to, leaving a victim a bloddy pulp with no hope of survival. The result of this 30-second mob of cops attacking was having the victim in handcuffs and in the squad car. I have not heard about any major injuries resultant from the interraction with the many police. Seems to me that using this logic, the force they used couldn’t have been excessive, as it seems to have got the job done as anyone would define it: Remove a risk to the public safety as quickly as possible without using excessive force that would hurt the accussed criminal more than necessary. It’s funny… I saw the video for the first time and immediately thought “well, he won’t steal a patrol car again.” Whereas when I first saw the Rodney King tape, I thought “asshole cops.” While it is possible my sensibilities are changing/have changed in this time, I really do think even with hindsight that the two cases are apples and oranges, and that grainy footage of cops arresting someone in this manner does not the same situation make. * * * Yer pal, Satan _TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Three months, one week, four days, 6 hours, 57 minutes and 56 seconds. 4091 cigarettes not smoked, saving $511.45. Life saved: 2 weeks, 4 hours, 55 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576/93 "2000-07-20T14:37:41Z")
It was leaked that Jones’ blood contained traces of cocaine, and there was crack and a pipe in the front seat of the stolen car he was driving. Was he all hopped up on goofballs, or just a little high? They haven’t said yet. However, someone taking 5 bullets and still managing to steal a car smacks to me of the distinct possibility of the former. As of Tuesday Jones is still in the hospital in “good condition,” and he was charged with the attempted murder of a police officer, assault, resisting arrest, three purse snatchings, and other offenses, plus he’s a suspect in other crimes (according to the Associated Press). There are currently six investigations into the incident. Esprix [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-beating-in-philly/25576.md?page=4)