# Police Deputy smashes into home, attacks family for flying flag upside down. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735 "2007-07-30T20:54:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/381 "2007-08-02T21:05:58Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] FYI, the Supreme Court IS part of the court system. [/quote] Sigh. The SCOTUS ruled on a _similar_ law from another state. It did not state that NC code umpty-squat was unConstitutional. Until the NC state legislature or the NC courts pull it, it’s still there. Neither the cop, nor Average Joe, are allowed to determine for themselves if the statute in question is similar enough to be covered by the SCOTUS ruling. (That is what the legislative and executive brahces are for, for pete’s sake.) > [@](#): > > They closed a door. Let’s not exaggerate. The door was not an obstruction to the cop obtaining info required on the citation? No exaggeration, the fact that they closed the door when he asked for ID is not in dispute, right? (I didnt say they hit him with the door…) You mention that you have received warnings about your music or TV being on too loud, and the neighbors complained. The cops came out, and you turned it down. What if… you told them to “Fuck Off”? You claim that the noise level is not high enough to qualify as a “disturbance to the peace”, and that they have no justification for harassing you. What do you think they will do? I predict that they would have written you a citation. They would have asked you your name, for the ticket. You ignore them, and close your door. Are they supposed to just stand there and pout? > [@](#): > > They might have thought (as I would have thought) that he could finish writing the ticket and then put it in the mailbox or under the door. I would not. The only citations received without a signature are ones written when the defendent is not available (like parking tickets). The ones were the defendant is present (like a speeding or jaywalking ticket), a signature is required. > [@](#): > > It’s not like it was a valid citation anyway. The intention was purely to harrass them. They may believe that, and it might even be true. You don’t argue about that on your front porch, though, and you don’t get to “resist arrest” (either through fisticuffs, or even walking away/shutting the door) if you think it’s bogus, either. > [@](#): > > All this stuff is a joke. It’san obsolete, 1917 statute which was no longer being enforced by the state. Let’s not pretend that there’s any real ambiguity or uncertainty as to whether the deputy knew that the statute was bullshit. Which might support a harassment defense or something along those lines. But it is done **in court** , not on your front porch. See, the defendent may think it’s harassment, but the cop may feel it’s justified. Therefore, a Judge and Jury decides if it is an abuse of authority by the cop, or not. Not the defendent, on his front porch, at the time the citation is being written. > [@](#): > > Animosity which could have been avoided if this cop had simply ignored the complaint and allowed this couple to exercise their constitutional rights in peace. The fault, then, lies with the legislature for leaving this law on the books (or the state court for not getting it suspended). The cop is not authorised to decide which laws on the books are worthy of ignoring, nor is he authorised to do the work the state legislature and courts should be doing by ignoring laws currently in force. He has some discretionary powers, true. In this case, he dicded to write the ticket. > [@](#): > > They didn’t call 911 until after he was in the house. He chased the husband into the kitchen and (rightfully fearing for their lives) the wife called 911. > > If they were afraid, they were afraid. They shouldn’t just have to let this guy beat them down, and it’s not like they shot him. They were just trying to defend themselves against a physical attack. No, they were resisting arrest. If the cop wanted them dead, he would have _shot_ them dead. One last time, I am not going to defend the cop fully here. He probably lost his temper. At the least, suspension, retraining, that sort of thing may be called for. But the defendents aren’t excused from thier actions, either. (Latitude comes in the sentencing phase, if any.) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/382 "2007-08-02T21:19:29Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] Gosh, I don’t know. That’s more a philosophy question, don’t you think? I think there have been times when resistance was appropriate - the resistance movement of blacks in the '60s was appropriate, necessary, and effective, wouldn’t you say? I think there can be times when unjust laws must be disobeyed, or disallowed police actions must be resisted. [/quote] As I stated, a sincere fear for your life is a legitimate defence, IMO. To protest a bogus law, not so much. (We are talking an active, physical resistance here. Not a passive civil disobedience action, like chaining yourself to a bulldozer to prevent the forest from being uprooted…) > [@](#): > > But like I said, I don’t disagree with most of your previous post; I was just nitpicking that one thing. In general, the time to dispute a citation is in court, not by arguing with the officer issuing the citation. I know, but I like to be taken seriously by such august company (DtC included). 🙂 Thanks for allowing me to participate. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/383 "2007-08-02T21:25:14Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] As I stated, a sincere fear for your life is a legitimate defence, IMO. To protest a bogus law, not so much. (We are talking an active, physical resistance here. [/quote] You mean assault? Actually, I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing. How do you feel about the civil disobedience movement in the '60s to combat racial discrimation? Do you think it was wrong? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/384 "2007-08-02T21:40:42Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] You mean assault? Actually, I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing. How do you feel about the civil disobedience movement in the '60s to combat racial discrimation? Do you think it was wrong? [/QUOTE] No. Not wrong. Does the scenerio in the OP seem to fall under “civil disobedience” for you? ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/385 "2007-08-02T21:45:52Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] No. Not wrong. Does the scenerio in the OP seem to fall under “civil disobedience” for you? [/QUOTE] I don’t feel like I have enough information to make that assessment. I certainly never meant to say or imply that it was. Honestly, I can’t see what it accomplished here. I would have just accepted the citation and fought it in court if I felt so inclined. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/386 "2007-08-02T21:49:53Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] No. Not wrong. Does the scenerio in the OP seem to fall under “civil disobedience” for you? [/QUOTE] I’d say no. If they were performing an act of civil disobedience, they wouldn’t have taken down the flag voluntarily. Also, one of the purposes of civil disobedience is to get arrested, which they seem to have tried to avoid. It doesn’t appear that they set out to challenge the flag desecration law, but maybe that’s the way this will end up. If so, that’s a good thing. I’m very confident that even the NC SCOTUS would rule that law unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/387 "2007-08-02T22:01:47Z")
They didn’t try to avoid getting arrested, they tried to avoid providing ID. It’s only technically “resisting arrest.” It wasn’t like he ever said “you’re under arrest,” before they closed the door. After he broke into the house, he never gave them a _chance_ to submit to an arrest. He just pulled out his truncheon and started swinging. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/388 "2007-08-02T22:14:40Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] They didn’t try to avoid getting arrested, they tried to avoid providing ID. It’s only technically “resisting arrest.” It wasn’t like he ever said “you’re under arrest,” before they closed the door. After he broke into the house, he never gave them a _chance_ to submit to an arrest. He just pulled out his truncheon and started swinging. [/QUOTE] If he was writing them a citation, and they refused to provide the information he needed to write the citation, especially by going inside and locking the door on him, how is that not resisting arrest? That’s more than just technically resisting arrest…refusing to comply with a police order’s instructions when he’s arresting/citing you is the definition of resisting arrest. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/389 "2007-08-02T22:37:47Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] They didn’t try to avoid getting arrested, they tried to avoid providing ID. It’s only technically “resisting arrest.” It wasn’t like he ever said “you’re under arrest,” before they closed the door. After he broke into the house, he never gave them a _chance_ to submit to an arrest. He just pulled out his truncheon and started swinging. [/QUOTE] Look, I’m not going to continue this stupid argument, as you keep ignoring the facts. The point I was addressing is whether they were performing an act of civil disobedience. I think not, because usually when you do that you try to get arrested. It does not look like they were trying to get arrested. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/390 "2007-08-02T22:58:36Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] I would not. The only citations received without a signature are ones written when the defendent is not available (like parking tickets). The ones were the defendant is present (like a speeding or jaywalking ticket), a signature is required. [/QUOTE] In fact, if I recall correctly, when a cop cites you for speeding and asks you to sign the citation, if you refuse, he can/will arrest you. [QUOTE=mlees] Which might support a harassment defense or something along those lines. But it is done **in court** , not on your front porch. [/QUOTE] Not unless you’re trying for an appearance on _Cops_. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/391 "2007-08-02T22:59:26Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Look, I’m not going to continue this stupid argument, as you keep ignoring the facts. > > The point I was addressing is whether they were performing an act of civil disobedience. I think not, because usually when you do that you try to get arrested. It does not look like they were trying to get arrested. My point is that they were not necessarily _avoiding_ arrest. Hypothetically, they could have been trying to _provoke_ an arrest by closing the door (without realizing that they had already been technically under arrest and we’re already technically resisting it). [QUOTE=Captain Amazing] If he was writing them a citation, and they refused to provide the information he needed to write the citation, especially by going inside and locking the door on him, how is that not resisting arrest? That’s more than just technically resisting arrest…refusing to comply with a police order’s instructions when he’s arresting/citing you is the definition of resisting arrest. [/QUOTE] In this case, I was only arguing against **Mace’s** suggestion that they were intentionally _avoiding_ arrest (and thereby were not being classically civilly disobedient). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/392 "2007-08-02T23:02:29Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] My point is that they were not necessarily _avoiding_ arrest. Hypothetically, they could have been trying to _provoke_ an arrest by closing the door (without realizing that they had already been technically under arrest and we’re already technically resisting it). [/quote] Let me point out once again that their own defense attorney says they were resisting arrest, since they didn’t think they had committed any crime. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/393 "2007-08-02T23:04:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Well, their discretion has never been reduced in any of my encounters. They obviously did not have to write a ticket. What other discretion is there? [/QUOTE] Sigh. We were talkiing about degree of discretion, and whether a person calling in a complaint reduced it. And I don’t know, and I don’t think you know, that once the complaint was called in that the cop still had that discretion to not write the ticket. Or if he still had that discretion but he was going to have to do a lot of explaining, etc. It’s certainly far from “obvious”. And why might that be? Because the rules that he operates under might not be the same as the rules as the cops where you live operate. But I think I’ve had enough, **Dio**. Good luck with the fever. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/394 "2007-08-02T23:09:42Z")
Great leaping Buddha on a toadstool **Diogenes** you’re still at it? I’ll say this much, you’re as determined as you are wrong. Give em hell buddy…sheesh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/395 "2007-08-02T23:10:23Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Let me point out once again that their own defense attorney says they were resisting arrest, since they didn’t think they had committed any crime. [/QUOTE] But if, n their minds, they were only resisting showing ID, they didn’t KNOW they were resisting arrest. It is very plausible that they thought they were PROVOKING an arrest. I am no longer arguing whether they were technically resisting arrest, I am saying that refusing to show ID does not mean they weren’t trying to get hauled off in cuffs. Hypothetically, it could be a tactic to PROVOKE law enforcement to haul you away in cuffs. Look change the word “arrest,” to “hauled away in cuffs.” People who are being civily disobedient want to get _hauled away in cuffs_. Refusing to show ID is a way to get the cops to _haul you away in cuffs_. Refusing to show ID does not mean you are trying to _avoid_ getting hauled away in cuffs. Hypothetically it could mean that you’re TRYING to get hauled away in cuffs. Do you get what I’m saying? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/396 "2007-08-02T23:55:46Z")
No, I’m not sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying you think they were doing an act of civil disobedience? If so, I wouldn’t have expected them to take down the flag. Remember, they originally just flew the flag upside down, and only attached the notes later to explain to people why. Had they wanted to civilly disobeyed the flag desecration law, they would have “desecrated” it from the get go. Hanging the flag upside down does not constitute “desecration”, per the police in your original article. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/397 "2007-08-03T00:16:06Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Look change the word “arrest,” to “hauled away in cuffs.” People who are being civily disobedient want to get _hauled away in cuffs_. Refusing to show ID is a way to get the cops to _haul you away in cuffs_. Refusing to show ID does not mean you are trying to _avoid_ getting hauled away in cuffs. Hypothetically it could mean that you’re TRYING to get hauled away in cuffs. Do you get what I’m saying? [/QUOTE] The door. They closed the door. Aaargghhhh. Must. Stay. Away. From. Thread. Must. Stay. Away. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/398 "2007-08-03T01:30:59Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] But if, n their minds, they were only resisting showing ID, they didn’t KNOW they were resisting arrest. It is very plausible that they thought they were PROVOKING an arrest. I am no longer arguing whether they were technically resisting arrest, I am saying that refusing to show ID does not mean they weren’t trying to get hauled off in cuffs. Hypothetically, it could be a tactic to PROVOKE law enforcement to haul you away in cuffs. Look change the word “arrest,” to “hauled away in cuffs.” People who are being civily disobedient want to get _hauled away in cuffs_. Refusing to show ID is a way to get the cops to _haul you away in cuffs_. Refusing to show ID does not mean you are trying to _avoid_ getting hauled away in cuffs. Hypothetically it could mean that you’re TRYING to get hauled away in cuffs. Do you get what I’m saying? [/QUOTE] Seriously, **Diogenes** , this is making no sense. If they were trying to be civily disobedient and get arrested, they first of all would not have complied with the request to take the flag down. Secondly, they would not have tried to close the door to avoid the officer, they would have stood their ground. I would think that refusing the officer’s request to take the flag down and then refusing to identify themselves would probably have been sufficient to get them arrested, if that’s what they were looking for…what else could the officer have done at that point but arrest them or walk away? ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/399 "2007-08-03T04:25:53Z")
> [@Buncombe County Sheriff Van Duncan](#): > > “After consulting with our legal counsel, and after talking with the District Attorney Ron Moore, we decided to ask for voluntary dismissal on all the criminal charges against the Kuhns,” Duncan said. “They’re being dropped because after reviewing the initial reason why we were at the Kuhn’s residence to begin with, it’s pretty apparent to us where the Supreme Court stands on this issue (flag desecration) and also it has been dealt with in this state in 1971, and we do not feel like we can successfully prosecute the desecration of the flag statute.” [All charges dropped.](http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770802076) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/400 "2007-08-03T04:42:12Z")
I am vindicated. I hope they put that flag right back up with a great big picture of a cock on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735.md?page=21)