# Police Deputy smashes into home, attacks family for flying flag upside down. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735 "2007-07-30T20:54:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/61 "2007-07-30T23:26:06Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] It seems much more likely that someone would break the window on a door by striking it rather than having it strike their hand. I find that aspect of the cop’s story pretty dubious. [/QUOTE] Exactly. I call bullshit on the cop’s story: > [@](#): > > Scarborough told Mark Kuhn he was going to be issued a citation and asked for identification. Kuhn refused, slammed the door on the deputy’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting Scarborough’s hand, the Sheriff’s Office said. How in the fuck do you slam a door on someone’s hand, break the glass pane of the door, and cut the hand? Is he contending that he held his hand in midair, _inside_ the doorway, and failed to move the hand out of the way as the door closed, and instead of pushing his hand back, the glass of the door actually _broke_? Maybe if you braced your arm and held it in place with enough force, you could get that to happen, but accidentally? That ranks right up there with, “He hit my fist with his nose”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/62 "2007-07-30T23:27:01Z")
I’m not siding with the cop but I thought cops were allowed to demand I.D. for pretty much any, or no reason at all. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/63 "2007-07-30T23:27:01Z")
[QUOTE=Wolfian] I like your style. [/QUOTE] Thanks. I’d like to take this opportunity to say, “ **Fuck you Miller.** This one’s for you!” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/64 "2007-07-30T23:27:27Z")
So, to re-cap: The thread title is bullshit – even assuming the deputy did assault the Kuhns, he did it because they would not provide ID and slammed the door, not because they were flying the flag upside down. The state of North Carolina has taken no action regarding this case. The deputy is not an agent of the state of NC, even if he may be, as \*\*Dio \*\*claims, in some dissemblingly vague political sense “an agent of the state.” There were no corroborating witnesses for either side, despite \*\*Dio’\*\*s claim. It is the word of the Kuhns against the word of the deputy. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/65 "2007-07-30T23:29:55Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] Asking an extreme question in order to better understand the limit of a doctrine is a rather ordinary part of reasonable debate. It can also be a way to reveal the absurdity of many absolute statements. So when you complain about such hypotheticals you just make yourself look silly. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Richard, I deal in the ACTUAL thing here, ok? I’ve arrested people. I’ve had to subdue a few of 'em, y’know, with force and everything. Fact is that excess violence and rape as techniques of arrest are so far beyond the pale that it serves to discredit the original argument. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/66 "2007-07-30T23:35:00Z")
[QUOTE=Cerowyn] A 1997 North Carolina Court of Appeal decision [Roberts v Swain, 126 NC App 712 (96-656)] makes the following statement:If you can find an online copy of the case, there’s a lot more relevant information; the [state.nc.us](http://state.nc.us) servers seem to be unavailable to me at the moment. This is a civil case, but is based upon an illegal arrest and resulting events. [/QUOTE] Good catch. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/67 "2007-07-30T23:37:21Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] The deputy is not an agent of the state of NC, even if he may be, as Dio claims, in some dissemblingly vague political sense “an agent of the state.” [/QUOTE] Actually, most LEO’s are per se “agents of the state”. Illinois, for instance, holds that all peace officers have powers that exist state-wide, and I think NC is similar, though I don’t know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/68 "2007-07-30T23:40:23Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] Good catch. Thanks. [/QUOTE] Care to ammend your previous assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/69 "2007-07-30T23:42:08Z")
I don’t care what the laws are regarding ID and citations. The cop was wrong to try to enter their home or write them up; both are wrong since the action(s) were taken in pursuit of a ridiculous and invalid law. The neighbors who called the police deserve a hearty “get fucked” as well. I’m kind of surprised by what is being omitted here. The officer who was giving the citation was not the first cop to go to the house and ask about the flag. Scarborough was the second officer to bother them about that topic, and considering the fact that they weren’t doing anything wrong, I can understand the Kuhns being pissed about it. Especially if the second officer said “I’m giving you a citation” after another officer has already looked at it, said “no problem,” and left them alone. That reeks of selective enforcement of the law and, yeah, harrassment. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/70 "2007-07-30T23:50:44Z")
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308] Actually, most LEO’s are per se “agents of the state”. Illinois, for instance, holds that all peace officers have powers that exist state-wide, and I think NC is similar, though I don’t know for sure. [/QUOTE] He may well have arrest powers state wide. He is not employed by the state of North Carolina. His each and every action while at work is neither _de facto_ endorsed nor required by the state of North Carolina. He does not represent the will of the state of North Carolina. To lay all this at the feet of the state of North Carolina is specious bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/71 "2007-07-30T23:51:20Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] How in the fuck do you slam a door on someone’s hand, break the glass pane of the door, and cut the hand? Is he contending that he held his hand in midair, _inside_ the doorway, and failed to move the hand out of the way as the door closed, and **instead of pushing his hand back, the glass of the door actually _broke_? Maybe if you braced your arm and held it in place with enough force, you could get that to happen, but accidentally?** That ranks right up there with, “He hit my fist with his nose”. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] (bolding mine) Yes, you’ve described it very well here. Unless you’re in a Buster Keaton movie, it seems to me that your hand is going to get pushed back unless you’re intentionally exerting resistance to the glass. I just don’t buy your WAG, **Miller** , so it comes down to whether it is more likely that an unusual event occurred regarding the physics of glass and the human hand, or a cop lost his shit when encountering mild non-compliant behavior. Gee, never saw anything like the latter ever happen. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/72 "2007-07-30T23:53:30Z")
One of the officers that visited the Kuhn’s recognized the upside down flag (which is not what they were being cited for, if I recall the article correctly) as a distress signal and inquired about that. That said, ‘friendly’ neighbor probably knew the statute better than the deputies, which is why the earlier visits did not get a response. It was when someone complained about the Kuhn’s breaking a NC law (and I’m not going to debate the constitutionality, nor should the deputy) that the deputy looked up the law and brought it to the Kuhn’s attention. People jaywalk all the time, including in front of police officers, despite it being a ticketable offense. People are surprised and upset on the very rare occassion they are ticketed; just because one officer didn’t ticket does not mean all officers are obliged not to ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/73 "2007-07-30T23:53:33Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Care to ammend your previous assertion? [/QUOTE] I’ll withdraw it. If I have time, I’ll come back with some pie; if not, please continue as if I’d said nothing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/74 "2007-07-30T23:59:34Z")
[QUOTE=D\_Odds] One of the officers that visited the Kuhn’s recognized the upside down flag (which is not what they were being cited for, if I recall the article correctly) as a distress signal and inquired about that. That said, ‘friendly’ neighbor probably knew the statute better than the deputies, which is why the earlier visits did not get a response. It was when someone complained about the Kuhn’s breaking a NC law (and I’m not going to debate the constitutionality, nor should the deputy) that the deputy looked up the law and brought it to the Kuhn’s attention. People jaywalk all the time, including in front of police officers, despite it being a ticketable offense. People are surprised and upset on the very rare occassion they are ticketed; just because one officer didn’t ticket does not mean all officers are obliged not to ticket. [/QUOTE] According to the woman, the officer referred to a law against desecrating the flag. Flying the flag upside down is not desecrating the flag. Something also occurred to me about the whole door/glass thing. If they managed to get the door closed and locked (but in so doing hit his hand), how did the door get unlocked? They just happened to break the glass on his hand, so he took the opportunity to reach in to their home and unlock the door? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/75 "2007-07-31T00:08:36Z")
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308] Stop with the hyperbole, you’re better than that. The officer is then COMMITTING a crime, and as such, despite his office, you may intercede with the appropriate level of force. [/QUOTE] It’s my contention that the offcer WAS committing a crime by breaking into the house and assaulting the husband. The wife had a right to defend her husband from being battered. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/76 "2007-07-31T00:10:14Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] According to the woman, the officer referred to a law against desecrating the flag. Flying the flag upside down is not desecrating the flag. [/quote] They also had notes pinned to the flag, which I understand to be against that particular statute. From the OP’s article: > [@](#): > > State law prohibits anyone from knowingly mutilating, defiling, defacing or trampling the U.S. or North Carolina flags. Lt. Randy Sorrells of the Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office said the Kuhns desecrated the flag by pinning signs to it, not by flying it upside down. > [@HtB](#): > > Something also occurred to me about the whole door/glass thing. If they managed to get the door closed and locked (but in so doing hit his hand), how did the door get unlocked? They just happened to break the glass on his hand, so he took the opportunity to reach in to their home and unlock the door? As much as I think \*\*Dio \*\*is over-reacting to a pending case, I would probably bet on the couple’s version of the story as being closer to the truth if I had to bet. But I wouldn’t be giving any odds on that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/77 "2007-07-31T00:12:40Z")
I might have been wrong about the ID thing. I assumed the right to remain silent included a right not to indentify one’s self. It appears I could have been wrong. Still, the cop was only writing the ticket to be an asshole pain in the balls and harrass a couple of liberals. Plus, they weren’t even in violation of the statute in the first place, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/78 "2007-07-31T00:13:03Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] Asking an extreme question in order to better understand the limit of a doctrine is a rather ordinary part of reasonable debate. [/QUOTE] Right. I agree. Which is why I feel it is OK to speed. Really. What if the Mazda behind me is filled with evil snowmen planning to catch me and cram a giant snowball up my ass? You can’t be too careful in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/79 "2007-07-31T00:15:18Z")
[QUOTE=D\_Odds] People jaywalk all the time, including in front of police officers, despite it being a ticketable offense. People are surprised and upset on the very rare occassion they are ticketed; just because one officer didn’t ticket does not mean all officers are obliged not to ticket. [/QUOTE] The reason is what I mentioned a few posts back: selective enforcement of the law. People have every right to complain about that, as it’s unjust. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735/80 "2007-07-31T00:20:53Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I might have been wrong about the ID thing. I assumed the right to remain silent included a right not to indentify one’s self. It appears I could have been wrong. [/quote] I don’t think they can demand to see ID, but they can demand that you give them your name. > [@](#): > > Still, the cop was only writing the ticket to be an asshole pain in the balls and harrass a couple of liberals. Plus, they weren’t even in violation of the statute in the first place, as far as I can tell. What seems more likely is that they were responding to a complaint. Have you read the statute, btw? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-deputy-smashes-into-home-attacks-family-for-flying-flag-upside-down/413735.md?page=5)