# Police Find House of Horrors With Arrest of Sovereign Citizen **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595 "2016-04-08T20:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/1 "2016-04-08T20:35:56Z")
> **[Police Find ‘House of Horrors’ With Arrest of 'Sovereign Citizen'](https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/04/08/police-find-%E2%80%98house-horrors%E2%80%99-arrest-sovereign-citizen)** > > A police investigation into fraud and identity theft in Michigan involving an antigovernment “sovereign citizen” took a dramatic turn when police discovered what they described as a “house of horrors.” > [@](#): > > A police investigation into fraud and identity theft in Michigan involving an antigovernment “sovereign citizen” took a dramatic turn when police discovered what they described as a “house of horrors.” > … > A four-count indictment accused him of sexual exploitation of children; involvement with activities and material constituting child pornography and sex trafficking of children by force, fraud or coercion. > … > The woman, who has not been identified, told police she was one of four sex slaves living in the home that authorities described as a prison-like brothel run by Travis, the Chicago Tribune reported. She had been chained to the pole for two weeks as a punishment for attempting to escape, police said. > … > “I’m a natural-born human of the American land,” Travis said. “I choose not to do business with this court. I ask that this case be dismissed.” Did this fool honestly believe that he could simply choose not to do business with the court and go home? I suppose he also thought that he could keep his slaves if he wrote their names in red ink or something. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/2 "2016-04-08T21:07:32Z")
Cue SovCits everywhere denouncing this prosecution as political. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/3 "2016-04-08T21:11:54Z")
This is great. Just great. One bad apple is going to go and ruin it for _all_ sovereign citizens! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/4 "2016-04-08T21:18:16Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > This is great. Just great. One bad apple is going to go and ruin it for _all_ sovereign citizens! And perhaps even for [the Creepy type of Libertarian](http://i2.wp.com/www.leftycartoons.com/wp-content/uploads/types_of_libertarian1.png). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/5 "2016-04-08T21:19:27Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > This is great. Just great. One bad apple is going to go and ruin it for _all_ sovereign citizens! For that analogy to work, you have to have a minimum of one good apple to ruin in the first place. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/6 "2016-04-08T21:21:08Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Did this fool honestly believe that he could simply choose not to do business with the court and go home? Do any of them? And yet they keep trying this nonsense over and over, as if it should eventually work if they can get it just right. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/7 "2016-04-08T21:30:08Z")
I wonder if he asked any of his captives whether or not they chose to do business with him? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/8 "2016-04-08T21:43:36Z")
These assholes keep declaring that they are outside the law. So let’s make them just that. Bring back the old idea of “outlaw.” Let anyone kill them who wants to. Greatest sanction would be maybe littering, or discharging a firearm within the city limits. Either that or classify them as vermin and offer a bounty. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/9 "2016-04-08T22:10:25Z")
It is completely unfair and unreasonable to associate sovereign citizens with actions of this sort. This type of crime has been committed by people of all political persuasions, and just because he’s attempting to use his sovereign citizenship to escape the consequences does not mean that all of them want to do it. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/10 "2016-04-08T22:15:35Z")
We’ll see how “sovereign” he feels when he gets tossed into prison. Time to cue the grinning Curly Bill “well … bye” GIF. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/11 "2016-04-08T22:17:16Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > These assholes keep declaring that they are outside the law. So let’s make them just that. Bring back the old idea of “outlaw.” Let anyone kill them who wants to. Greatest sanction would be maybe littering, or discharging a firearm within the city limits. Either that or classify them as vermin and offer a bounty. Yeah, just put an ad in the newspaper: “The suspect will be in the courthouse parking lot from 11 am to 2 pm awaiting transport, and we’re taking down the flag with fringe on it. If something were to happen… well, he’s the one who says we can’t do anything about it.” ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/12 "2016-04-08T22:17:24Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > It is completely unfair and unreasonable to associate sovereign citizens with actions of this sort. This type of crime has been committed by people of all political persuasions, and just because he’s attempting to use his sovereign citizenship to escape the consequences does not mean that all of them want to do it. You’re right of course, but extreme cases like this highlight what’s wrong with their philosophy. If people can just declare themselves sovereign the result would be chaos and the law of the jungle. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/13 "2016-04-08T22:19:18Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > It is completely unfair and unreasonable to associate sovereign citizens with actions of this sort. This type of crime has been committed by people of all political persuasions, and just because he’s attempting to use his sovereign citizenship to escape the consequences does not mean that all of them want to do it. :dubious: Right then, back to the Pit thread. The SovCits are manifestly nuts. No one gets to just declare they aren’t bound by law. (Except possibly John McAfee. I still don’t understand how he got to just walk away from that murder charge.) Deportation, at a minimum, seems reasonable for the entire group. This guy, of course, now gets to reap what he has sown. Is Michigan a death penalty state or is he just going to prison for the rest of his life? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/14 "2016-04-08T22:24:22Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > :dubious: > > Right then, back to the Pit thread. The SovCits are manifestly nuts. No one gets to just declare they aren’t bound by law. (Except possibly John McAfee. I still don’t understand how he got to just walk away from that murder charge.) Deportation, at a minimum, seems reasonable for the entire group. This guy, of course, now gets to reap what he has sown. Is Michigan a death penalty state or is he just going to prison for the rest of his life? Are there any states that have the death penalty for anything short of murder? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/15 "2016-04-08T22:28:17Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > The SovCits are manifestly nuts. No one gets to just declare they aren’t bound by law. I’m not arguing that at all. I agree, they are nuts. What I don’t agree with is the attitude that this is a natural result of their views. It’s not a natural result of their views, any more than Republicans should be tied to Ted Bundy, or Democrats should be tied to John Gacy, or the Beatles should be tied to Charles Manson. He is simply a sociopathic criminal, and he would be so no matter what beliefs he espoused. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/16 "2016-04-08T22:43:06Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > It is completely unfair and unreasonable to associate sovereign citizens with actions of this sort. This type of crime has been committed by people of all political persuasions, and just because he’s attempting to use his sovereign citizenship to escape the consequences does not mean that all of them want to do it. No doubt. OTOH, it is not irrelevant that the police came to his house in the court of investigating fraud and identity theft, which appear to be characteristically SovCit crimes. They seem to think anything they can do on/with paper is kosher. Also, he was pocketing his slave’s Social Security disability checks – SovCits seem to think anything the government has is theirs by right. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/17 "2016-04-08T22:45:30Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Are there any states that have the death penalty for anything short of murder? I confess to leaping to the conclusion that bodies will show up. Sadly this seems to happen in similar cases. I apologize for my error. > [@Frank](#): > > I’m not arguing that at all. I agree, they are nuts. What I don’t agree with is the attitude that this is a natural result of their views. > > It’s not a natural result of their views, any more than Republicans should be tied to Ted Bundy, or Democrats should be tied to John Gacy, or the Beatles should be tied to Charles Manson. > > He is simply a sociopathic criminal, and he would be so no matter what beliefs he espoused. I don’t think anyone really thinks (on the Dope anyway) that being a SovCit automatically means you are a sociopath dickwad. I honestly couldn’t tell whether your post was sarcastic or not. It is reasonable to conclude, however, that SovCits are devoid of civic responsibility and represent a drag on society. To be clear, I do agree that there is no connection between the SovCit movement and this man’s alleged actions. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/18 "2016-04-08T22:58:51Z")
I’ve seen other articles about it, but it still somehow strikes me as really odd to see black sovereign citizens like this guy. I guess I ordinarily tend to associate the movement with white supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/19 "2016-04-08T23:16:33Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I’ve seen other articles about it, but it still somehow strikes me as really odd to see black sovereign citizens like this guy. I guess I ordinarily tend to associate the movement with white supremacy. AFAICT they tend to self identify as “Moors”. [SPLC article on subject.](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2011/%E2%80%98sovereigns%E2%80%99-black) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/20 "2016-04-08T23:24:33Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > AFAICT they tend to self identify as “Moors”. > [SPLC article on subject.](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2011/%E2%80%98sovereigns%E2%80%99-black) > > CMC fnord! Most potent, grave, and reverend signiors, My very noble and approved good masters, That I have ta’en away this old man’s daughter, It is most true; true, I have married her: The very head and front of my offending Hath this extent, no more. – _Othello_ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595.md?page=2)