# Police Find House of Horrors With Arrest of Sovereign Citizen **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595 "2016-04-08T20:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/21 "2016-04-08T23:42:48Z")
> [@](#): > > “I’m a natural-born human of the American land,” Travis said. “I choose not to do business with this court. I ask that this case be dismissed.” And yet he was more than willing to take the woman’s gubmint-issued social security check every month… ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/22 "2016-04-09T00:02:37Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > This type of crime has been committed by people of all political persuasions, and just because he’s attempting to use his sovereign citizenship to escape the consequences does not mean that all of them want to do it. I completely agree. We shouldn’t denigrate the actions of all child sex traffickers just because one of them happens to be a sovereign citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/23 "2016-04-09T00:04:48Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > I completely agree. We shouldn’t denigrate the actions of all child sex traffickers just because one of them happens to be a sovereign citizen. If that’s how you interpret my posts, then I’ve got to assume that you are the stupidest person I have ever encountered on this board. And you’re up against some stiff competition. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/24 "2016-04-09T00:16:56Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Are there any states that have the death penalty for anything short of murder? Not anymore. Louisiana used to have the death penalty for child rape, but that was struck down by SOTUS a few years ago. Treason, espionage, & large scale drug trafficking are still capital crimes under federal law. Some states have still have their own treason laws, but nobody’s been convicted of treason in a state court since John Brown. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/25 "2016-04-09T01:30:22Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > It is completely unfair and unreasonable to associate sovereign citizens with actions of this sort. Right. We should instead associate Sovereign Citizens with incidents like [this](http://www.wydailynews.com/trending/13914-alphonso-mobley-s-hands-blown-off-when-bomb-he-was-making-exploded.html). Note that the explosive involved in this, uh, tragic accident was triacetone triperoxide (TATP), used in the Paris attacks last year. Apparently it is not the kind of stuff you want to mess around with in your kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/26 "2016-04-09T05:08:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Cue SovCits everywhere denouncing this prosecution as political. I read this as Soviet Citizens, and thought back to Cold War days. And then wondered, do other countries have ‘Sovereign Citizens’? I know England does, I’ve seen them on youtube. What about other countries, or other parts of the world besides Europe? > [@davidm](#): > > I wonder if he asked any of his captives whether or not they chose to do business with him? No,no – you ask them if they chose to enter joinder with him. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/27 "2016-04-09T05:16:17Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I read this as Soviet Citizens, and thought back to Cold War days. And then wondered, do other countries have ‘Sovereign Citizens’? > I know England does, I’ve seen them on youtube. What about other countries, or other parts of the world besides Europe? > > No,no – you ask them if they chose to enter joinder with him. Canada. The best part is they still try to cite U.S. contract law. ---
**Author:** ![Ennui](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ennui/32/3396_2.png) [@Ennui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennui)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/28 "2016-04-09T05:33:37Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I read this as Soviet Citizens, and thought back to Cold War days. And then wondered, do other countries have ‘Sovereign Citizens’? > I know England does, I’ve seen them on youtube. What about other countries, or other parts of the world besides Europe? > > No,no – you ask them if they chose to enter joinder with him. Sadly the virus has spread. Outside the US and Canada you have Great Briton and pretty well all of the common wealth countries and I’ve recently read of eruptions in Germany and Austria (UCC filings and all). [One valuable resource on the matter](http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewforum.php?f=37). ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/29 "2016-04-09T06:32:21Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’m not arguing that at all. I agree, they are nuts. What I don’t agree with is the attitude that this is a natural result of their views. > > He is simply a sociopathic criminal, and he would be so no matter what beliefs he espoused. The Sovereign Citizen ideas are by their very nature anti-social and narcissistic. The idea that you can just choose not to be bound by the rules of society because you’re so special and figured out some secret code phrases is a very dangerous one. Turn it around and it makes perfect sense that sociopaths who weren’t going to to obey societies laws choose the Sovereign citizen philosophy as a way of justifying their actions. So yeah its perfectly valid to judge all SovCits as potentially violent and dangerous nutballs. They completely reject the social contract the rest of us accept, and they do so publicly, they deserve to be treated with extreme caution. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/30 "2016-04-09T09:12:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And perhaps even for [the Creepy type of Libertarian](http://i2.wp.com/www.leftycartoons.com/wp-content/uploads/types_of_libertarian1.png). Offtopic: I never got “Briefly Tempting.” You’d think the last one would be horrible, but it’s just anti-war. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/31 "2016-04-09T09:15:32Z")
Frank, did you miss the people upthread who were mocking the very idea of the shit you posted? This is the point of the movement–to live in a lawless way. They don’t need any defense. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/32 "2016-04-09T10:51:01Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > Is Michigan a death penalty state or is he just going to prison for the rest of his life? No death penalty. > [@Frank](#): > > I’m not arguing that at all. I agree, they are nuts. What I don’t agree with is the attitude that this is a natural result of their views. Of course it is. Their attitude is that people can do whatever the hell they want and enter into any agreements they want as long as the parties can enforce it themselves. This definitely leads to slavery in the end via coercion of one sort or another, and once you’re locked in someone’s basement and changed to a pole you’re out of luck. Yes, it’s an extreme form of the philosophy but that won’t stop it from being done by the extremist minority you already find when you get a group of people. > [@coremelt](#): > > The Sovereign Citizen ideas are by their very nature anti-social and narcissistic. The idea that you can just choose not to be bound by the rules of society because you’re so special and figured out some secret code phrases is a very dangerous one. Turn it around and it makes perfect sense that sociopaths who weren’t going to to obey societies laws choose the Sovereign citizen philosophy as a way of justifying their actions. ^ This. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/33 "2016-04-09T14:24:44Z")
Give **Frank** a break. He’s just going though his Briefly Tempted stage and wants to defend the path he’s considering. It’s a fling. He might come back to his senses before he embarrasses himself too much. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/34 "2016-04-09T15:24:21Z")
This is hilarious: [http://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Citizens-Cut-Out-Kit-1-0/dp/1469907801](http://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Citizens-Cut-Out-Kit-1-0/dp/1469907801) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/35 "2016-04-09T15:36:21Z")
…aaaanyway, I wonder if once he’s at the State Pen how will he feel about establishing joinder with the Department of Corrections vs. establishing it with any of the fine rulemaking mutual-aid organizations among the general population of the institution. 'cause none of them are gonna let him decline politely under the terms of the Code of Commerce. > [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I’ve seen other articles about it, but it still somehow strikes me as really odd to see black sovereign citizens like this guy. I guess I ordinarily tend to associate the movement with white supremacy. Oh, that one’s easy. Both have a common core of “the government has been taking what’s rightfully ours all along. We owe it nothing.” Thing is, I suppose, the normal Black Nationalist fringe movements tend to seek an actual separate government that will STILL have laws against keeping abductees in your basement or seizing your neighbor’s house while he’s off on vacation. So instead these putzes decide to go SovCit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/36 "2016-04-09T15:37:48Z")
Yeah, but we all agree that the whole Income Tax thing is a fraud perpetrated on the American citizenry, right? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/37 "2016-04-09T15:51:39Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > This is hilarious: [http://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Citizens-Cut-Out-Kit-1-0/dp/1469907801](http://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Citizens-Cut-Out-Kit-1-0/dp/1469907801) I honestly can’t figure out if that’s a parody or not… ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/38 "2016-04-09T16:54:57Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’m not arguing that at all. I agree, they are nuts. What I don’t agree with is the attitude that this is a natural result of their views. I’d say that sociopaths are attracted to a philosophy that would let them get away with their actions. It’s not that sociopathy is a result of a belief in sovereign citizenship - it’s that sovereign citizenship is a result of sociopathy. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/39 "2016-04-09T17:08:58Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > This is hilarious: [http://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Citizens-Cut-Out-Kit-1-0/dp/1469907801](http://www.amazon.com/Sovereign-Citizens-Cut-Out-Kit-1-0/dp/1469907801) > [@Horatius](#): > > I honestly can’t figure out if that’s a parody or not… See if they accept payment against your secret Treasury account. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/40 "2016-04-09T18:05:17Z")
Do they tell themselves and each other that in reality the “secret password” crap works, and that “the government-run media” is only _lying_ about how it never works and everyone trying it is getting fined and/or going to jail? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595.md?page=3)