# Police Find House of Horrors With Arrest of Sovereign Citizen **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595 "2016-04-08T20:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/41 "2016-04-09T18:22:20Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > …aaaanyway, I wonder if once he’s at the State Pen how will he feel about establishing joinder with the Department of Corrections vs. establishing it with any of the fine rulemaking mutual-aid organizations among the general population of the institution. 'cause none of them are gonna let him decline politely under the terms of the Code of Commerce. I had a few prisoners tell me that didn’t recognize my authority to give them orders. So I’d spray tear gas in their face. Turns out everyone recognizes tear gas. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/42 "2016-04-09T20:00:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I had a few prisoners tell me that didn’t recognize my authority to give them orders. So I’d spray tear gas in their face. Turns out everyone recognizes tear gas. Did they choose to enter joinder with the tear gas? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/43 "2016-04-09T20:12:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do any of them? And yet they keep trying this nonsense over and over, as if it should eventually work if they can get it just right. Surely it must work once in a while! :rolleyes: The RationalWiki article “Freemen On The Land” has a seemingly [comprehensive listing of successful cases](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#Freeman_successes)! ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/44 "2016-04-09T20:27:12Z")
NATURE! The laws of NAYYYY-TURRRRRRE! We must get back to…PRIMEVAL INTEGRITY!!! [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/qOynucXABGE/hqdefault.jpg "Rhinoceros (1974) - pt 4") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOynucXABGE) ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/45 "2016-04-09T21:25:43Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Yeah, just put an ad in the newspaper: “The suspect will be in the courthouse parking lot from 11 am to 2 pm awaiting transport, and we’re taking down the flag with fringe on it. If something were to happen… well, he’s the one who says we can’t do anything about it.” Works for me, I was physically abused and I have absolutely no tolerance for abuse of women in any form … I would have no issue either loaning one of the imprisoned women my sidearm or popping him myself if he were declared fully outlaw. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/46 "2016-04-09T22:58:47Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I would have no issue either loaning one of the imprisoned women my sidearm or popping him myself if he were declared fully outlaw. Isn’t that distressingly similar to joking about “deserved” male-male prison rape or applauding the guy who trashed Jared Fogle because he doesn’t like kiddie-diddlers? I ask because, though I thought Fogle’s incident was funny but not unexpected, some people here are nicer than I and may object. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/47 "2016-04-10T12:25:26Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I read this as Soviet Citizens, and thought back to Cold War days. And then wondered, do other countries have ‘Sovereign Citizens’? > I know England does, I’ve seen them on youtube. What about other countries, or other parts of the world besides Europe? A handful in Norway. Most famously this nutter: [http://www.sigurdsdatter.com/establishment-of-niceland-as-sovereign-territory.html](http://www.sigurdsdatter.com/establishment-of-niceland-as-sovereign-territory.html) She, or whomever she got the pseudolaw from, chose to replace the “real” US constitution with the old Norwegian law of Christian IV to argue their sovereignty. Yeah, I’m sure the law set down by an absolute monarch holds provisions for resigning from society … ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/48 "2016-04-10T13:30:51Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Are there any states that have the death penalty for anything short of murder? Last I checked, Louisiana would put you to death for child rape which seems supremely stupid. It’s like saying “Hey rapists! don’t leave any witnesses!” ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/49 "2016-04-10T13:54:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do they tell themselves and each other that in reality the “secret password” crap works, and that “the government-run media” is only _lying_ about how it never works and everyone trying it is getting fined and/or going to jail? They have some [interesting notions of “victory”](http://losethename.com/victory-stories/), > [@](#): > > This arrest occurred on a Saturday, so Sam had to remain in the cell until Monday when the courts were running. On Monday midday, Sam was called into court where he told them he was there against his will, they didn’t have jurisdiction and explained the legal name fraud to them. They asked Sam if he was a legal name; he said ‘no’, and explained that he wasn’t any legal name and would not consent to being one. They said it may have been a case of mistaken identity and took Sam back to the cell. An hour later, Sam was taken back to court where they read out charges and asked how he wanted to plea. Sam told them he wasn’t there to plea, and they sent him back to the cell and given psychological evaluation. Three hours later, Sam was taken to court for a third time; charges were read out again and ‘you’ (the body/DNA/fingerprints) was banned from driving and all charges were dropped, and Sam walked free. [http://losethename.com/sams-police-interaction/](http://losethename.com/sams-police-interaction/) …coupled with some run of the mill ignorance of what the law actually requires: > [@](#): > > Read Elizabeth’s story about flying from Norway, to Germany and Portugal without a passport or ID. [http://losethename.com/traveling-without-legal-name/](http://losethename.com/traveling-without-legal-name/) > **[Travel documents for EU nationals - Your Europe](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-citizen/index_en.htm)** > > Travellers' rights when crossing borders between border-free Schengen countries and other countries in Europe – ID and passports > [@](#): > > If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one border-free Schengen EU country to another. > > The border-free Schengen area includes: …Norway …Portugal … Germany… There are lots of other examples at that “victories” site. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/50 "2016-04-10T15:18:49Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Isn’t that distressingly similar to joking about “deserved” male-male prison rape or applauding the guy who trashed Jared Fogle because he doesn’t like kiddie-diddlers? I ask because, though I thought Fogle’s incident was funny but not unexpected, some people here are nicer than I and may object. Why? If he is outlaw, it would be legal - prison rape isn’t. And popping him would be fast, I knew some women in my group therapy bunch who would have happily chained him in their basement and taken him apart slowly and painfully over months. I was only physically abused for the 3 months it took me to extract myself from a bad situation[though some facets of the PTSD has hung around for almost 30 years despite therapy], some of the women in my group were abused for _years_. I will admit I am not fond of people who abuse children or women either physically, mentally or sexually, but I wouldn’t torment them - though a double tap to the back of the head is not out of the question if it were legal IMHO. Sorry if you don’t feel that way, I do hope that neither you nor any of your friends or kin get abused - though that might change your opinions \ ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/51 "2016-04-10T20:20:52Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > NATURE! The laws of NAYYYY-TURRRRRRE! We must get back to…PRIMEVAL INTEGRITY!!! > > [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOynucXABGE](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOynucXABGE) Now I have to find that movie. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/52 "2016-04-10T21:13:05Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’m not arguing that at all. I agree, they are nuts. What I don’t agree with is the attitude that this is a natural result of their views. > > It’s not a natural result of their views, any more than Republicans should be tied to Ted Bundy, or Democrats should be tied to John Gacy, or the Beatles should be tied to Charles Manson. > > He is simply a sociopathic criminal, and he would be so no matter what beliefs he espoused. I’m glad you made your general point, but there’s a bright line here which we don’t want miss. The whole ideology of Sovereign Citizenry exists to paper over criminality. The great portion of these nuts engage in or defend exclusively non-violent crimes like fraud. But it shouldn’t surprise us if some use the same conceptual machinery (such as it is) to justify violent crimes. Or any crime. So it’s not just a smear - if you can say the nation’s law doesn’t apply to you, that’s going to apply to all laws. That’s not to say that most Sovereign Citizens will condone violence. But I think it is fair to observe that they haven’t spent a lot of time addressing that implication of their stated views. Unlike, say, radical libertarian or even anarchist nuts. Sov Cit views are pretty toxic. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/53 "2016-04-10T21:29:41Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The great portion of these nuts engage in or defend exclusively non-violent crimes like fraud. But it shouldn’t surprise us if some use the same conceptual machinery (such as it is) to justify violent crimes. Or any crime. So it’s not just a smear - if you can say the nation’s law doesn’t apply to you, that’s going to apply to all laws. You, and other posters above who have made similar arguments, have convinced me. I am wrong. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/54 "2016-04-10T21:53:45Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Right. > > We should instead associate Sovereign Citizens with incidents like [this](http://www.wydailynews.com/trending/13914-alphonso-mobley-s-hands-blown-off-when-bomb-he-was-making-exploded.html). > > Note that the explosive involved in this, uh, tragic accident was triacetone triperoxide (TATP), used in the Paris attacks last year. Apparently it is not the kind of stuff you want to mess around with in your kitchen. But see, the great thing about Sovereign Citizens is that since they make all their own laws within the confines of their own sovereign nation bounded by the four walls of the tarshacks in which they reside, explosives like this are perfectly legal! So is meth and heroin, which Sovereign Citizens frequently enjoy while assembling said explosives. It’s a bit of a bummer for the neighbors, but the bright side is that Darwinian principles come into play. I’m sure that a great many distinguished Sovereign Citizens are prime candidates for the Darwin Awards which are, by definition, awarded posthumously. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/55 "2016-04-10T22:21:50Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > [https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/04/08/police-find-‘house-horrors’-arrest-sovereign-citizen](https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/04/08/police-find-%E2%80%98house-horrors%E2%80%99-arrest-sovereign-citizen) > > > [@](#): > > > > “I’m a natural-born human of the American land,” Travis said. “I choose not to do business with this court. I ask that this case be dismissed.” Anyone else notice just a teeny, tiny disjunct between his 2nd and 3rd sentences? Why does he need to ask? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/56 "2016-04-10T22:38:54Z")
It’s [The Taser](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A7U5eJN3hLI). The really sad thing is how many of these videos are out there. Or funny, depending on how much you enjoy watching people getting tasered for being idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/57 "2016-04-10T23:29:22Z")
From the taser link, I ran into this one: [Sovereign Citizen "Traveler" Hands Over His Driver's License at Traffic Stop - YouTube](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vmIE5l9daP4) It’s a traffic stop for an expired registration. Nothing especially remarkable about it (and no tasering) but it’s fun to watch the extremely patient cop’s approach to dealng with the guy’s mumbo jumbo. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/58 "2016-04-10T23:40:08Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > From the taser link, I ran into this one: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vmIE5l9daP4](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vmIE5l9daP4) > > It’s a traffic stop for an expired registration. Nothing especially remarkable about it (and no tasering) but it’s fun to watch the extremely patient cop’s approach to dealng with the guy’s mumbo jumbo. [Another traffic stop without taser](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB8katyjc9Q). Remarkable considering her voice will make your ears bleed. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/59 "2016-04-11T00:24:56Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m glad you made your general point, but there’s a bright line here which we don’t want miss. The whole ideology of Sovereign Citizenry exists to paper over criminality. The great portion of these nuts engage in or defend exclusively non-violent crimes like fraud. But it shouldn’t surprise us if some use the same conceptual machinery (such as it is) to justify violent crimes. Or any crime. So it’s not just a smear - if you can say the nation’s law doesn’t apply to you, that’s going to apply to all laws. Yes, unlike being Republican, Democrat, Green, Rap Music Fan, etc., the Sovereign Citizen notion is \*fundamentally \*about evading the jurisdiction of the Law and of the government established under it – not even about overthrowing it and replacing it with a better one. Sure, it originates out of not wanting to pay taxes or submit to regulations on your property and livelihood activities, but it’s easy to see how the truly antisocial elements will readily reach for it as a figleaf to gunk up the works when put on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/60 "2016-04-11T00:33:58Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Anyone else notice just a teeny, tiny disjunct between his 2nd and 3rd sentences? > > Why does he need to ask? Probably just being polite. Seriously. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595.md?page=4)