# Police Find House of Horrors With Arrest of Sovereign Citizen **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595 "2016-04-08T20:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/61 "2016-04-11T01:02:53Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > You, and other posters above who have made similar arguments, have convinced me. I am wrong. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > Yes, unlike being Republican, Democrat, Green, Rap Music Fan, etc., the Sovereign Citizen notion is \*fundamentally \*about evading the jurisdiction of the Law and of the government established under it – not even about overthrowing it and replacing it with a better one. Sure, it originates out of not wanting to pay taxes or submit to regulations on your property and livelihood activities, but it’s easy to see how the truly antisocial elements will readily reach for it as a figleaf to gunk up the works when put on the spot. Yeah. I will opine that Frank’s initial instincts were the correct ones though. Generally speaking, it’s bad to play guilt by association. But this ideology doesn’t appear to have even the mildest of conceptual anti-bodies to prevent violent criminals from flocking to their banner. At least extremist libertarianism stresses non-coercion. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/62 "2016-04-11T01:19:34Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Yeah. I will opine that Frank’s initial instincts were the correct ones though. Generally speaking, it’s bad to play guilt by association. But this ideology doesn’t appear to have even the mildest of conceptual anti-bodies to prevent violent criminals from flocking to their banner. At least extremist libertarianism stresses non-coercion. Bullshit. Extreme libertarianism opposes the legitimacy of elected government in a democratic society and its right to enact laws and enforce them in the public interest, on the grounds that said extreme libertarians have a natural right to be raving loons. Being coerced into a particular situation by raving loons isn’t better than coercion due to the rational rule of law. It seems rather much worse. If raving libertarian loons would leave the rest of us alone, I’d be fine to have them fuck off and live the libertarian life of Tarzan off in the wilderness somewhere, as long as it was extremely remote\*. - Preferably on another planet. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/63 "2016-04-11T03:41:32Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Another traffic stop without taser](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB8katyjc9Q). Remarkable considering her voice will make your ears bleed. Shouldn’t we cut her a little slack? _“You’re raping me,”_ she explained. _“This is rape. This is rape. This is RAPE.”_ \ ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/64 "2016-04-11T04:58:14Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Anyone else notice just a teeny, tiny disjunct between his 2nd and 3rd sentences? > > Why does he need to ask? Because Sovereign Citizens are convinced they’re gaming the system, and forcing it to leave them alone by making it enter a state the lawmakers never intended. They do this because they’re smart enough to know that trying to just _leave_ a courtroom isn’t going to work. They know they need some form of words, some kind of argument, to make the magic work and prove they’re smarter than everyone else. Calling it a “cheat code” is common but, in a technical sense, inapt: Cheat codes are explicitly designed-in features of the software, created to allow debugging (and/or specifically for certain kinds of gamer) and then not removed. What they’re attempting is more like the exploitation of a bug, finding some flaw in the logic which will force everyone to do what they want. The fact officers of the court and everyone else in a given country’s legal system is a human being and allowed to act as such never enters their minds: They see odd-looking terms of art and reams of carefully-formatted boilerplate text and they think that everyone must be following everything exactly, so a person as smart and as special as themselves must be capable of finding something which will turn the proceedings on their head. The fact Sovereign Citizen theories are congruent with their own dogmatic views just makes it that much more attractive. _Of course_ the Federal government has no power; that’s where all the Liberal perverts sit, right alongside That Muslim. _Of course_ there’s a distinction between Actual True Americans and Fourteenth Amendment Citizens; you can’t actually believe the Civil War _really_ made Those People our equals. So now they can take their ideas, which they know are unpopular in the outside world, and weaponize them against the people who want to take even more away from them. It’s George Washington all over again. Well, the Whiskey Rebellion got put down. The Federal government hasn’t been any more kindly to insurrectionists since then. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/65 "2016-04-11T05:08:05Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Shouldn’t we cut her a little slack? _“You’re raping me,”_ she explained. _“This is rape. This is rape. This is RAPE.”_ \ “A free inhabitant has all the rights of a citizen but doesn’t have to follow any of the laws.” He should have zapped her just for that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/66 "2016-04-11T05:16:40Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > “A free inhabitant has all the rights of a citizen but doesn’t have to follow any of the laws.” “Well, that would just be pure anarchy, if that were the case.” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/67 "2016-04-11T06:11:24Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Because Sovereign Citizens are convinced they’re gaming the system, and forcing it to leave them alone by making it enter a state the lawmakers never intended. They do this because they’re smart enough to know that trying to just _leave_ a courtroom isn’t going to work. Still seems like a disjunct to me. If he believed in his own shit he should have been able to say “I choose not to do business with this court. I am entitled to leave.” Even acknowledging that the court had an option not to dismiss the case is acknowledging its authority over him. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/68 "2016-04-11T11:41:27Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Still seems like a disjunct to me. If he believed in his own shit he should have been able to say “I choose not to do business with this court. I am entitled to leave.” > > Even acknowledging that the court had an option not to dismiss the case is acknowledging its authority over him. Because even then the court exists and _wants_ to exert authority. He wants to have the court desist from even trying. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/69 "2016-04-11T13:24:17Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Bullshit. Extreme libertarianism opposes the legitimacy of elected government in a democratic society and its right to enact laws and enforce them in the public interest, on the grounds that said extreme libertarians have a natural right to be raving loons. Sure. And we have some on this board ( **WillFarnaby** springs to mind). But so long as they abide by the laws passed by that democratic government (as I presume Mr. Farnaby does), what does it matter? > [@Ennui](#): > > Sadly the virus has spread. Outside the US and Canada you have Great Briton… Which one? Churchill? Seb Coe? J.B. Priestley? Darwin? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/70 "2016-04-15T18:45:07Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > The Sovereign Citizen ideas are by their very nature anti-social and narcissistic. The idea that you can just choose not to be bound by the rules of society because you’re so special and figured out some secret code phrases is a very dangerous one. Turn it around and it makes perfect sense that sociopaths who weren’t going to to obey societies laws choose the Sovereign citizen philosophy as a way of justifying their actions. > > So yeah its perfectly valid to judge all SovCits as potentially violent and dangerous nutballs. They completely reject the social contract the rest of us accept, and they do so publicly, they deserve to be treated with extreme caution. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do they tell themselves and each other that in reality the “secret password” crap works, and that “the government-run media” is only _lying_ about how it never works and everyone trying it is getting fined and/or going to jail? No no no! It’s not code words. It’s not passwords. It’s flag fringe!! Also this guys are born of the American Land, and it’s crystal clear they are ruled by centuries old British Admiralty laws for ship captains. You just don’t get it! ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/71 "2016-04-15T18:57:25Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > - Preferably on another planet. That’s where a Stargate Universe would be useful. Pick a planet, shove every one of these idiots through the gate. Tell them they’re on their own and we’ll stop back in 20 years. My bet is that 99% of them would be dead and the survivors and their children will have abandoned this stupid-assed philosophy. Well, except for a hand-full of individuals living off on their own like mountain men. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/72 "2016-04-15T19:30:36Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I wonder if he asked any of his captives whether or not they chose to do business with him? Not necessary. He sewed fringe on all their undies. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/73 "2016-04-15T19:48:19Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > That’s where a Stargate Universe would be useful. > > Pick a planet, shove every one of these idiots through the gate. Tell them they’re on their own and we’ll stop back in 20 years. > > My bet is that 99% of them would be dead and the survivors and their children will have abandoned this stupid-assed philosophy. You mean you’d actually check on them when the 20 years was up? Why? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/74 "2016-04-15T19:54:45Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Calling it a “cheat code” is common but, in a technical sense, inapt: Cheat codes are explicitly designed-in features of the software, created to allow debugging (and/or specifically for certain kinds of gamer) and then not removed. What they’re attempting is more like the exploitation of a bug, finding some flaw in the logic which will force everyone to do what they want. The fact officers of the court and everyone else in a given country’s legal system is a human being and allowed to act as such never enters their minds: They see odd-looking terms of art and reams of carefully-formatted boilerplate text and they think that everyone must be following everything exactly, so a person as smart and as special as themselves must be capable of finding something which will turn the proceedings on their head. So they’re essentially trying to “glitch” the system, to use the gaming term. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/75 "2016-04-15T20:01:48Z")
The difference between a libertarian and a SovCit is that the libertarian at least realizes that if you annoy the fascists, they’re gonna stomp on you. The SovCit somehow thinks that if you just tell the fascists that you’re not gonna play their fascist game, the fascists will realize they have no power here and run away. That’s the insane thing. It’s one thing to say “We should change the laws so the fascist cops leave us alone so we can smoke our weed in peace”. It’s another thing to say “The fascists cops will leave you alone if you just explain to them that you never agreed to be part of their fascist system”. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/76 "2016-04-15T20:09:39Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > You mean you’d actually check on them when the 20 years was up? Why? Documentation. In case others have decided to walk the path. “See, we gave these people their own PLANET and they couldn’t manage even a rudimentary society.” ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/77 "2016-04-15T20:17:24Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Documentation. In case others have decided to walk the path. “See, we gave these people their own PLANET and they couldn’t manage even a rudimentary society.” Oh, I’m not sure they want any kind of society, rudimentary or otherwise. I think all they need to be happy is to travel without driving, a wheeled conveyance that’s not a motor vehicle, a steady supply of houses that other people aren’t using anymore, and a few sex slaves in the basement. And what’s so wrong with that, I ask you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/78 "2016-04-15T20:22:04Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > You mean you’d actually check on them when the 20 years was up? Why? America’s Funniest Home Videos. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/79 "2016-04-15T20:56:31Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > NATURE! The laws of NAYYYY-TURRRRRRE! We must get back to…PRIMEVAL INTEGRITY!!! > > [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOynucXABGE](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOynucXABGE) [Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above.](http://movie-sounds.org/adventure-movie-sounds/sound-clips-from-the-african-queen-1951/nature-mr-allnut-is-what-we-are-put-in-this-world-to-rise-above) And boy, if the guy in the video isn’t all-nut, who is? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595/80 "2016-04-16T19:52:13Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Oh, I’m not sure they want any kind of society, rudimentary or otherwise. Sure they do. Somebody has to produce the goods and services they enjoy. These assholes just want a free ride provided by everybody else. They don’t particularly if anybody else is inconvenienced as long as they have or get theirs. They’d actually hate it if society didn’t function. They couldn’t be leeches anymore and might have to actually work for a living. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-find-house-of-horrors-with-arrest-of-sovereign-citizen/751595.md?page=5)