# Police fire pepper spray balls into Sox fan crowd killing girl-What are these things? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613 "2004-10-22T16:16:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/21 "2004-10-22T19:17:00Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Actually, I didn’t know that and I don’t think I’m stupid for not knowing. I’m not from Boston. I hardly think it’s fair to say that an entire world-class city is unsafe during a team’s winning championship game. > > The fact is that most people got through the celebration with no problem. The police used poor judgement. Period. Even if the girl realized she was in harm’s way, it is very, very difficult to remove yourself from a crowd like that. Tons of people are pushing and moving the crowd. They had no business firing a weapon like that into a crowd. Christ! There were probably LOTS of kids in that crowd, as well! The cops were wrong. But then, as I said before, I get freaked out from any of these obnoxious “celebrations”, so you won’t find me in the line of fire. I’m much more afraid of the crowd than the cops. This incident may change that. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/22 "2004-10-22T19:20:28Z")
**t-keela** , I am not blaming the victim. As I recall, I blamed the rioters. **Monocracy** nailed it. Should the cops and city have been better prepared? Maybe, but when a city or PD over-prepares they get abuse too, for jumping the gun (so to speak) and infringing on people’s right to peacfully gather! Fault lies squarely on the folks who started and participated in the riot. Was the girl to blame? No. Should she have been more aware of the possible dangers of her own actions? Yes. Did she somehow deserve to die because of that misjudgement? No way in hell. It is a tragedy, which I think by it’s very definition is “_A disastrous event, especially one involving distressing loss or injury to life._” ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/23 "2004-10-22T19:21:14Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Question begging. More like “watching the news and seeing it happen live.” ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/24 "2004-10-22T19:28:20Z")
Celebration my ass. The police were there to quell a riot, not settle a noise complaint. What happened to the girl is a tragic accident, with the rioters to blame just as much if not more than the police. As for firing a projectile that _ **may** _ kill into a crowd, this was a one in a million shot. This is designed to force rioters to disperse, something that they will not do even if you yell pretty please. There is no way to make a mob disperse without using something that may possibly kill somebody. There is always going to be an allergy/heart condition/fluke shot/accident that will result in somebody getting killed. It’s not like the cops were firing real bullets into the crowd. This was a pepper filled paint ball. As for the father, I know he is grieving for the loss of his daughter, but he really needs to stop blaming the police. This was an accident. If he needs to take out his grief, blame the drunken violent idiots that can’t peacefully celebrate a victory. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/25 "2004-10-22T19:39:29Z")
Calling her stupid for being there IS blaming her in a way. Nevertheless… So what if she had actually been one of the crowd? Would that make it okay for the cops to kill her then? See what I mean. It was a fuckup pure and simple. Even if she actually threw the bottle, that doesn’t justify her DYING. Overkill, literally. Sometimes the people are gonna break the law. Punishment comes after a trial. She wanted to party with friends, it got rowdy and she died as a result. BTW what was the actual damage the crowd was responsible for. I missed where they burned a car or broke up a store…I know they must’ve done something besides blocking traffic and getting drunk and loud. He nailed it huh? She was stupid. That’s the answer we all agree on? This was an accident. I think we can all agree on that. Who was stupid? That’s a bit tougher call. People get caught up in the moment and let their emotions take over. That can be stupid. People overreact when they feel threatened. That can also be stupid. Sounds like everyone might’ve been a little bit ignorant when you look at it that way. BUT her death will never be “acceptable” to me. I know this is G/D but that’s my opinion anyway. Maybe the city of Boston ought to just get rid of their sports teams if this is acceptable to y’all. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/26 "2004-10-22T19:40:40Z")
My question is how did something like this cause death? I’ve played with paintball guns before and yes they hurt like hell. I can imagine getting hit in the eye with one could cause some nasty damage like permanent blindness or losing your eye. But how did it result in her dying? Did it get hit hard enough that in caused hemoraging in her brain? ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/27 "2004-10-22T19:53:30Z")
As a recreational paintball player, i can tell you that getting tagged with a paintball will sting a little, but the sting usually dissapates within a minute or so, it _can_ leave a bruise or welt, but as long as the marker is calibrated to shoot below 280 FPS, it shouldn’t break the skin, markers _can_ be adjusted to shoot upwards of 400 FPS, which _will_ break the skin (350 and above will break the skin) according to a police product catalog i’ve thumbed thru, and the pepperball website the pepperball system _is_ calibrated to shoot at 380 FPS, much higher than a consumer paintball marker, and i’d imagine getting tagged at 380 would hurt a great deal more, maybe the higher velocity is to compensate for the cushionung effects of clothing, the more layers you wear, the less it will sting that said, the cardinal rule in paintball is you must wear a specially-designed face mask during play, you _are not_ permitted to remove it during play, as a head shot could cause loss of vision to an unprotected eye, or ear damage (from impact to the ear), the paintball mask is similar to a pair of ski goggles, but with an integrated face and ear shield i’d assume a pepperball to be similar, perhaps the shell is a bit harder, to cause more pain, however, a head shot _should not_ kill, a perp may lose an eye or take damage to the ear however, hence the reccomendation for avoiding headshots one big problem with paintball markers (and i’d imagine Pepperball markers) is the inherent inaccuracy of paintballs, they can be affected by wind, obstructions in the barrel, inconsistent fill density, etc…, if you took a standard rifle target and set it up with a paintball marker locked into a shooting vise and fired a group of 10 shots, the groups would be around 3-4", a pretty wide group, and seeing as most pepperball markers are simply [Tippmann Pro-Carbine](http://tippmann.com/markers/pc.asp) markers with the stock barrel, they’d be no more accurate than a consumer Tippy i can see two possibilities here; 1; the marker had it’s velocity cranked up to above 380 FPS and the higher speed impact could have caused the death of the woman 2; it was an extremely unfortunate one-in-a-billion malfunction/glitch ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/28 "2004-10-22T20:20:08Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > Calling her stupid for being there IS blaming her in a way. Yes, i suppose, but not total blame, just part of the blame. Let me give you a personal anecdote to explain it better. Many years ago, i was walking home from a bar, very drunk. Passing through downtown, i stopped at a weiner-wagon to get a soda. Pulling a wad of cash out of my pocket, which included a mess of 20s, 10s, and 1s, i heard a seedy character standing near me exclaim “Holy shit!” Luckily, i did not get mugged that night, but i realized it was one of the dumbest things i’ve done, putting myself in a very dangerous situation. What happened was a tragedy and she definitely did not “deserve” it. But bad things are bound to happen in these situations, she was just one of the unlucky ones. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > Actually, I didn’t know that and I don’t think I’m stupid for not knowing. I’m not from Boston. I hardly think it’s fair to say that an entire world-class city is unsafe during a team’s winning championship game. Since you’re not from Boston, you’re not stupid for not knowing. But everyone living in New England knew. The Red Sox/Yankees have a particular history (probably the most bitter rivalry in all American professional sports), the series was intense (Boston lost the first 3 games, then won the last 4), and Boston has lots of young adults (it’s a huge college city). ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/29 "2004-10-22T20:36:07Z")
You can’t even blame the girl for not getting out of there at the right time. Let’s see… She was in a city near a park where a game was going on. Anyone else ever fit into this group of people? Someone throws a bottle at a police officer not too far from you. Have you ever been within maybe, oh, 40 feet of a police officer near a non-violent crowd? Someone decided to be an ass and throw a bottle. Police officer shoots peperspray gun. That might take a whole 3 seconds. How fast do you think this 21 year old girl could run? Fast enough to see a bottle thrown and run a block to insure that pepper gun didn’t hit her before it was fired? The fault lies entirely on the officer. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/30 "2004-10-22T20:46:31Z")
We have no idea yet if the cop had ever used this sort of spray before. If he was issued a weapon that he was told was non-lethal, why shouldn’t he believe it and use it as he’d been trained? The immediate incident was that people started to throw bottles from the crowd the girl was in, and the police immediately wheeled around and started firing back to where the bottles were coming from. No time for Victoria to run, or for the police to have singled her out. A terrible accident, but the blame surely lies with people who throw glass bottles at policemen and their horses. That was the catalyst for the pepper. Anyway, there’s going to be an investigation, and the chief of police really seems shaken about it herself. The only criticism I can think of is that witnesses say the policeman fired it at people at eye-level, which may not be right. I don’t know yet. Neither do any of us. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/31 "2004-10-22T20:49:56Z")
OK, to clarify this was not a peaceful gathering or any sort of genteel night of revelry. From [here](http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=50315&format=) > [@](#): > > The shot that killed Snelgrove followed a standoff between a cop on horseback and a young man wearing a gray knit hat. Standing by a bustling sausage cart, the man refused the officer’s orders to move, prompting the officer to reach down and toss him to the ground. After getting up, the man hurled profanities at the cop and made several obscene gestures. > > ``` > More bottles were thrown as at least one riot cop fired projectiles into the crowd, one of which apparently struck Snelgrove. The girl had been standing by the sausage cart with friends. > > She immediately fell to the ground while her friends tended to her, rubbing her head as blood streamed from her face. Horrified onlookers shouted ``get an ambulance'' as the girl drifted in and out of consciousness. One of the riot cops checked on the girl briefly. Approximately five minutes after she collapsed, mounted police cleared a path for an ambulance and the girl was taken away. > > As cops cleared the crowd, one young man who had been standing near Snelgrove shouted at police, ``Are you happy? Murderers!'' > > One officer was stunned at the ferocity of the violence. ``I saw the horses surrounded,'' he said. ``It was like a vacuum. They got sucked in. I saw guys holding small trees they had pulled out of the ground like warriors. They were holding steel sign posts they had bent over and broken. We had to fight to get control.'' > > ``` As I and others have said, the fault lies with a bunch of drunken morons easily as much as it does with an officer. This cop didn’t just get hit with a bottle, spin, and take a headshot at the nearest person. This was, for all intents and purposes, a riot. Get that through your heads before you starting ganging up on the officers involved. ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/32 "2004-10-22T21:10:53Z")
> [@t-keela](#): > > I could’ve sworn the story I read said she was outside the stadium near a vendors cart or something. You probably read it correctly. Fans flocked to the empty stadium (Fenway Park) to “celebrate”. This is where most of the rioting was likely to occur. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/33 "2004-10-22T21:21:26Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > OK, to clarify this was not a peaceful gathering or any sort of genteel night of revelry. > > From [here](http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=50315&format=) > > As I and others have said, the fault lies with a bunch of drunken morons easily as much as it does with an officer. This cop didn’t just get hit with a bottle, spin, and take a headshot at the nearest person. This was, for all intents and purposes, a riot. Get that through your heads before you starting ganging up on the officers involved. It sounds like the kinetic impact of the pepper ball against her skull caused some kind of brain trama. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/34 "2004-10-22T21:26:13Z")
> [@astro](#): > > It sounds like the kinetic impact of the pepper ball against her skull caused some kind of brain trama. I’m going to lean against that. My physics is a bit rusty, but most of the force should have been dissapated by the breaking of the ball in the same way as the guy who puts the cinderblock on his chest and lets a guy with a sledgehammer hit the block feels very little force. I think it is more likely the ball hit her square in the eye, though what lethal trauma that could have caused is unknown to me. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/35 "2004-10-22T21:36:37Z")
[http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/special2/article.adp?id=20041021154109990010](http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/special2/article.adp?id=20041021154109990010) > [@](#): > > Witnesses said Snelgrove was standing outside the ballpark when a reveler threw a bottle at a mounted police officer > > Fifteen other people, including a police officer, suffered minor injuries in Boston’s Kenmore Square neighborhood near Fenway Park after thousands of baseball fans spilled onto the streets to celebrate the Red Sox triumph on Wednesday night > > What happened to her should not happen to any American citizen going to any type of game, no matter what," he said. "She loved the Red Sox. She went in to celebrate with friends. She was a bystander This could be part of why I thought she was actually AT the game. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/36 "2004-10-22T21:38:00Z")
The problem I’m having is this – logic tells me that when you’re above people’s heads, as a mounted officer is, and the projectile you’ve got must not hit people in their heads, as these pepperballs must not, then the officer ought not shoot it. You aren’t going to stop a riot by hurting people and adding to the commotion and any sense of anger in the crowd. You also can’t stop a riot, by causing further chaos, and that’s exactly what this close level pepper gas would do. It’s a recipe for an increase in property damage and injuries and one day our urban police departments will figure that out. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/37 "2004-10-22T21:47:05Z")
> [@TeaElle](#): > > You aren’t going to stop a riot by hurting people and adding to the commotion and any sense of anger in the crowd. You also can’t stop a riot, by causing further chaos, and that’s exactly what this close level pepper gas would do. It’s a recipe for an increase in property damage and injuries and one day our urban police departments will figure that out. Tell me please **TeaElle** , how do you stop a riot in progress? Specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/38 "2004-10-22T21:51:53Z")
It’s clear we don’t have enough information to know exactly what happened. Given that I’m inclined to agree with **Mehitabel** in that it may be a training issue. Part of the problem stems from “non-lethal” weapons which aren’t intended to kill but certainly can. Taser has had several lawsuits against it becaue of people killed after that device was used. Cops are in a tough situation with crowd control but it’s clear that all weapons should be used with the same care as when using a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/39 "2004-10-22T22:23:59Z")
latest report from the ap [http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/special2/article.adp?id=20041021154109990010](http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/special2/article.adp?id=20041021154109990010) > [@](#): > > “Several people who were near the area where Snelgrove was shot said the crowd seemed under control when the pepper-spray balls were fired.” Several eyewitnesses said the crowd she was in wasn’t being riotous. The aggressive crowd was in the street. There was no reason to shoot the weapon her way at all. I’m thinking perhaps an accidental discharge at this point. I believe, I could forgive that easier than anything else. The officer is in a fearful situation, has a weapon at ready, someone scares his horse and his gun accidently discharges. That sounds a lot better than he shot the weapon on purpose but wasn’t aware that it was aimed at somebody’s face. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-fire-pepper-spray-balls-into-sox-fan-crowd-killing-girl-what-are-these-things/270613/40 "2004-10-22T22:48:03Z")
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