# Police Misconduct: A few bad apples, or an epidemic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894 "2016-02-02T00:16:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/21 "2016-02-02T19:36:40Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Well, we’ve got some numbers in. I suspect that there may be less to these numbers than meets the eye. Specifically, I suspect that a lot of whether a given cop has complaints and settlements has more to do with what type of work he’s involved in and which part of the city than it does to with his approach to policing. Meaning there could be many good cops with a lot of complaints against them and many bad cops with few or none. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/22 "2016-02-02T19:52:12Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Well, we’ve got some numbers in. In Chicago: > [Small group of Chicago police costs city millions in settlements – Chicago Tribune](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-police-misconduct-settlements-met-20160129-story.html) > > So…assuming that the third of the misconduct lawsuits were ones in which actual misconduct occurred, and further assuming that at least some of the settlements officers were named in were not adjudicated against them although misconduct occurred… > > Seems like there’s somewhere between 1% and 18% of our department’s officers who are engaging is misconduct, often repeatedly. > > Is this “a few bad apples”? Or is this an epidemic within the force? What percent of a police force would you consider indicative of a systemic problem, rather than the problem of a few rogue individuals? Here’s some more numbers for you, also from Chicago. Chicago, like a lot of places is expanding their use of dashcams and bodycams. The Chicago PD is actively sabotaging those cameras. [Chicago Police Have Been Sabotaging Their Dash Cams](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/01/chicago-police-officers-tampered-with-dash-cams.html) > [@](#): > > Last month the CPD found that 80 percent of its 850 dash cams do not record audio, and 12 percent don’t record video either. The CPD has blamed the failures on “operator error or in some cases intentional destruction,” and a close reading of that review by DNAinfo Chicago reveals the extent of the latter. Officers frequently tampered with dash cams, stashing microphones in their glove boxes or pulling out batteries. Some dash cams were found with their antennae deliberately destroyed, and others had had their microphones removed altogether. > > DNAinfo also describes a months-long repair time for dash cams that experienced “intentional destruction.” For example: Jason Van Dyke, the officer who shot and killed McDonald and has been charged with first-degree murder, brought in his dash cam in early 2014 to have a wiring problem fixed, and got it back three months later, on June 17. The very next day, the dash cam was broken again. This time it took until October 8 to fix what appeared to be intentional damage. Less than two weeks later, his dash-cam footage of the McDonald shooting (which differs from the viral video we all saw) had no sound. Police records show that the microphones in his car had never been synced up to the camera. The Chicago DP interim superintendant John Escalante has implemented spot checks and fines for officers who don’t have functional cameras. Two dozen cops have been disciplined so far - [Nearly 2 dozen Chicago cops disciplined for faulty dashboard cameras](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-police-disciplined-met-20160106-story.html) > [@](#): > > Over about the past month, 22 rank-and-file cops and supervisors received punishments ranging from a simple reprimand to a three-day suspension. Officers also were disciplined for not uploading whatever footage was captured on the dash-cams at the end of their tours, a police spokesman said. > > The department discovered that 80 percent of dash-cams had no functioning audio, according to the spokesman, Anthony Guglielmi. After Escalante announced the crackdown, Guglielmi said, the department saw a 75 percent increase in the amount of videos that were uploaded at the end of each shift. So, it’s nice that they’re starting to take steps, but you know, it wasn’t just a handful of bad apples running around disabling everybody else’s dashcams. Hopefully, cop culture can change. If not, I guess we all need to start wearing our own livestreaming bodycams. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/23 "2016-02-02T20:23:29Z")
IANAPoliceman, but here’s how I’ve heard it: Even cops who aren’t bullies and wife-abusers find themselves in a situation where someone they know needs to be taken off the street, but it ain’t gonna happen without cutting a few corners. They don’t get gold stars in Heaven from letting a known (to him, not the courts) menace skate on a technicality. A cop’s role isn’t to serve and protect and keep his hands clean, it’s to let the city keep running and let businesses do their business. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/24 "2016-02-02T20:32:10Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Hopefully, cop culture can change. If not, I guess we all need to start wearing our own livestreaming bodycams. [That what they do in Russia](http://www.rferl.org/content/dash-cams-russia-fighting-corruption-and-scams-car-crashes/24780355.html); motorists use dash cams as protection against corrupt police (& insurance scams). I’d like to think our police are better than theirs, but the jury’s still out. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/25 "2016-02-02T20:42:56Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I don’t think there are reliable numbers. Especially since there is little effort to get to the bottom of legitimate complaints, which means false complaints will not be exposed either. Without reliable numbers we can’t know the answer to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/26 "2016-02-02T20:47:22Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > The Chicago DP interim superintendant John Escalante has implemented spot checks and fines for officers who don’t have functional cameras. Two dozen cops have been disciplined so far - How many senior officers have been disciplined for the failures of their staff? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/27 "2016-02-02T22:58:40Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > How many senior officers have been disciplined for the failures of their staff? I don’t know. I’m not sure that’s relevant to the question of whether there’s an epidemic. I would agree that inconveniencing the senior officers would be a help in effecting change. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/28 "2016-02-03T14:28:31Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > So, it’s nice that they’re starting to take steps, but you know, it wasn’t just a handful of bad apples running around disabling everybody else’s dashcams. To be fair, I can totally see how bodycams could be interpreted as unwanted and unneeded surveillance- as a sort of nanny measure implemented by jittery politicians to monitor grown men who are well trained, experienced professionals. I’d fucking rebel too, if my workplace was literally recording everything I did on my computer over the course of the workday, and requiring me to upload it every day, based on what some other assholes did at some other company in some other state. That said, there is definitely a CYA component to them for good cops, but even at that, I can totally see how they would be viewed as a massive breach of trust and faith, and an implicit discounting / disbelief in one’s professionalism as a law enforcement officer. Finally, is IS Chicago, a city with a government not known for being a shining example of integrity, honesty and above-board dealings, so I’m not really sure in the case of Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2016, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/29 "2016-02-04T10:25:11Z")
> [@bump](#): > > To be fair, I can totally see how bodycams could be interpreted as unwanted and unneeded surveillance- as a sort of nanny measure implemented by jittery politicians to monitor grown men who are well trained, experienced professionals. > > I’d fucking rebel too, if my workplace was literally recording everything I did on my computer over the course of the workday, and requiring me to upload it every day, based on what some other assholes did at some other company in some other state. To be fair, if you were caught destroying your employer’s equipment, your opinions on the nanny state would not stop them from firing your ass and handing you a bill for the damage. You certainly would not be allowed to go on damaging it, repeatedly, for months on end. To be fair, Police Departments need to get more aggressive about firing rebel officers. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/30 "2016-02-05T08:40:31Z")
> [@bump](#): > > To be fair, I can totally see how bodycams could be interpreted as unwanted and unneeded surveillance- as a sort of nanny measure implemented by jittery politicians to monitor grown men who are well trained, experienced professionals. > > I’d fucking rebel too, if my workplace was literally recording everything I did on my computer over the course of the workday, and requiring me to upload it every day, based on what some other assholes did at some other company in some other state. > > That said, there is definitely a CYA component to them for good cops, but even at that, I can totally see how they would be viewed as a massive breach of trust and faith, and an implicit discounting / disbelief in one’s professionalism as a law enforcement officer. > > Finally, is IS Chicago, a city with a government not known for being a shining example of integrity, honesty and above-board dealings, so I’m not really sure in the case of Chicago. It takes a healthy does of hypocrisy for the organizations that are responsible for undercover surveillance, license plate readers (and aggregating that data so they can keep tabs on your and my whereabouts), collecting texts, GPS, and other information from your cell phone via fake cell towers (Stingray devices), petitioning the government to ban encryption technologies or leave backdoors for law enforcement in their code, etc to be upset about _their_ privacy being trampled via dash cams. ---
**Author:** ![Hocus\_Pocus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/41988e/32.png) [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/31 "2016-02-05T09:30:00Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I have the National Guard on speed dial ‘1’ and a Nationwide Police Recruitment firm on ‘2’." You do realize that NYPD has been recruiting nationally for years due to an inability to attract qualified applicants, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/32 "2016-02-05T13:33:31Z")
[This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=778360) has some relevant links. > [@](#): > > It’s way easier to weed out bad cops then we thought (police violence) > [This study](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-to-predict-which-chicago-cops-will-commit-misconduct/) analyzed a huge amount of data on complaints filed against cops. The study wanted to test the usual police defense when asked about excessive police force, that the offending cops are “just a few bad apples”. > > Surprisingly, that defense is correct. It IS just a few bad apples who rack up almost all of the complaints. Between two and ten percent of cops are bad, depending at how many complaints you draw the line. And these bad apples STAY bad, year after year. > > More alarmingly, they also stay in the police force, which is a very bad thing. because they influence other cops in a bad way. They also cost the police force a lot, both in money ( settlements) as well as in diminished trust by the public in the police > > So it’s really quite simple. Any cop racking up more then a certain amount of independent complaints, should leave the force. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/33 "2016-02-05T13:47:23Z")
In the recent case of the Sammy Yatim shooting in Toronto, one thing that was noted was that the police officer, Joseph Forcillo, had pulled his gun on a surprising number of suspects over the previous few years. I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but what was immediately striking was that the stats on Toronto police pulling their guns were extremely skewed; it wasn’t a bell curve. The majority of police officers draw their weapons basically never, or once in a blue moon, and then a small percentage draw them once or twice a year, and then a tiny number are pulling the guns out far more than anyone else. That’s only one thing, of course, but then we see that a very small number of Chicago cops are messing with the dash cams, and I’m sure we could find other examples. While these anecdotes prove little, they are rather suspiciously similar to what common sense and almost everyone’s personal experience should dictate. In every single job I have ever been in, the bad apples are few, in any area of behaviour. The problem is not that all cops are bad, it’s that the good ones protect them. ---
**Author:** ![Ajunta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Ajunta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ajunta)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894/34 "2016-02-05T23:19:07Z")
I wouldn’t call it an “epidemic.” People need to keep in mind that there are hundreds of thousands of law enforcement officials, interacting with millions of civilians, suspects, and criminals every day. Even in a near perfect system, there would still be daily instances of abuse, corruption, misconduct, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-misconduct-a-few-bad-apples-or-an-epidemic/744894.md?page=1)