# Police/pedestrian encounter (rights violated). What would you have done? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 28, 2010, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592 "2010-12-28T11:34:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/101 "2010-12-30T04:39:46Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > As others have mentioned, you do not know with 100% certainty that the LEO did not have RAS. > [@rostfrei](#): > > At the time he said “you’re not in any trouble..”, I (in good faith) had no reason to believe that the officer suspected me of something illegal. However, after the fact, I am 100% certain that the police officer had no RAS…or else he’d have arrested me, or given me a citation. No. The purpose of a detention based on reasonable, articulable suspicion is to give the officer time to investigate to either confirm or dispel his suspicion. In order to arrest or cite you, he would need a higher level of suspicion known as _probable cause_. So he could well have had legitimate RAS, regardless of what he said to you and regardless of what you believed, in good faith or otherwise. And his detention could have been perfectly proper, but failed to confirm his suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/102 "2010-12-30T04:45:04Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > When the police question a suspect, they have the right to lie. OTOH, I believe they’re supposed to tell you that you are a suspect and read you your Miranda rights. No. The Miranda rights are required as a predicate to the admissibility of any statements you make while in custodial interrogation. If they do not intend to offer into evidence any inculpatory statements you make, they don’t have to give you a Miranda warning at all. The usual practice is to give you Miranda warnings when you’re arrested or detained for interrogation. If you’re the subject of a Terry stop for brief investigation, then it’s not required – again, though, if you’re not free to go, then anything you say can’t be used against you unless you’ve been warned that it can. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/103 "2010-12-30T04:51:20Z")
TLDR Let me help you here with a suggestion if this ever happens again > [@rostfrei](#): > > “It’s kind of cold to be out walking, isn’t it?” And I replied, “yes, indeed it is”. I just live in the next block and it seem kind of silly to scrap snow off my car for 5 minutes for a 30 second drive, don’t you agree? Cop: Yeah makes sense to me, have a good night. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/104 "2010-12-30T05:05:14Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > TLDR > Let me help you here with a suggestion if this ever happens again > I just live in the next block and it seem kind of silly to scrap snow off my car for 5 minutes for a 30 second drive, don’t you agree? > Cop: Yeah makes sense to me, have a good night. What if you live 5 miles away and it’s 10 degrees out? Does that make it any more the cop’s business that you’re taking a walk? I’d just ask them if I’m free to go, like the OP did. There is nothing to gain by trying to convince them that you’re not committing some crime, whether or not you actually are. Either they have some reason to stop or arrest you, or they don’t. If they do, they won’t be seeking your cooperation. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/105 "2010-12-30T15:17:25Z")
> [@ducati](#): > > Thanks for insulting about 700,000 men and women who are a hell of a lot smarter than you, and a hell of a lot better than you. Better than me at what?😕 I would also ask those people who are such sticklers for the letter of the law when it comes to their “rights”, will they demand the same level of scrutiny from the police if they get stopped for some minor infraction? ---
**Author:** ![Gilliver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5fc32e/32.png) [@Gilliver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilliver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/106 "2010-12-30T15:40:28Z")
It sounds to me that rather than trying to harrass law abiding citizens in your area, the police officer may have been trying to protect law abiding citizens in your area. He just needed to know which side you were on. Want to feel truly violated? Try waking up one morning to find that someone had been in your house WHILE YOU WERE SLEEPING and stolen items of yours and your childrens. I sure wish a cop had been watching out for my neighborhood the night that happened to me, and even _GASP_ asking pedestrians for ID. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/107 "2010-12-30T19:09:55Z")
> [@Gilliver](#): > > It sounds to me that rather than trying to harrass law abiding citizens in your area, the police officer may have been trying to protect law abiding citizens in your area. > > He just needed to know which side you were on. > > Want to feel truly violated? Try waking up one morning to find that someone had been in your house WHILE YOU WERE SLEEPING and stolen items of yours and your childrens. I sure wish a cop had been watching out for my neighborhood the night that happened to me, and even _GASP_ asking pedestrians for ID. Is there some reason to believe that would have actually helped? ---
**Author:** ![Gilliver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5fc32e/32.png) [@Gilliver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gilliver)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/108 "2010-12-31T12:32:03Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > Is there some reason to believe that would have actually helped? Absolutely. Lets say John and Pete are out walking around looking for houses that they might be able to hit later that night. An officer sees them and gets a bad vibe so he stops and asks what they are doing and finds out who they are. They haven’t done anything wrong up to that point, but like I said the cop just has a vibe about where they are walking and what they might be up to. John and Pete know that they can still hit a house that night, but chances are the police will come straight to them to ask if they know anything about the burglary. Chances are they will go home instead of committing any crimes since they have been ID’d in the area. Lets say John and Pete are out walking around, but are up to nothing bad but the officer gets a bad vibe and does the same thing. A burglary in the same area is committed later that night by someone else. Now the cops may go to the innocent John and Pete and ask if they know anything and even though they had nothing to do with it, they want to prove their innocence and might be able to name someone else in the area they saw that might be the responsible party. Hey, Ted Bundy was caught in Pensacola by a cop who just got a bad vibe. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/109 "2010-12-31T13:44:32Z")
> [@Gilliver](#): > > Absolutely. > > Lets say John and Pete are out walking around looking for houses that they might be able to hit later that night. An officer sees them and gets a bad vibe so he stops and asks what they are doing and finds out who they are. They haven’t done anything wrong up to that point, but like I said the cop just has a vibe about where they are walking and what they might be up to. > > John and Pete know that they can still hit a house that night, but chances are the police will come straight to them to ask if they know anything about the burglary. > > Chances are they will go home instead of committing any crimes since they have been ID’d in the area. > > Lets say John and Pete are out walking around, but are up to nothing bad but the officer gets a bad vibe and does the same thing. A burglary in the same area is committed later that night by someone else. Now the cops may go to the innocent John and Pete and ask if they know anything and even though they had nothing to do with it, they want to prove their innocence and might be able to name someone else in the area they saw that might be the responsible party. > > Hey, Ted Bundy was caught in Pensacola by a cop who just got a bad vibe. Well, I suppose being the subject of a cop’s “bad vibe” is perfectly acceptable if the target is actually guilty of something, or if they’re proportionately subject to that type of thing. But what about the people who didn’t do anything wrong, but still get put in this position all the time? Is that fair to them? And we all know that some people are put in the position a lot more than others. I rarely if ever would be, and it’s not just because I’m so specially law-abiding. I could be exactly as law-abiding, but just look less like a nice white girl, and cops would magically have a lot more bad vibes about me. Ted Bundy was a charming white guy, and most cops would (and did) see him and find nothing suspicious. I suppose we could suspect every charming white guy and violate their rights, and no doubt some would actually turn out to be serial killers, but I’m not sure that the ends would justify the means. Of course, serial killers are a special type of criminal…most criminals are just opportunists. Treating an innocent person as a likely criminal is a great way to make them into one. There’s just no way to fairly target people based on “bad vibes”. There’s profiling, or there’s articulable suspicion/probable cause. The second we give credence to “bad vibes”, we sanction discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/110 "2010-12-31T13:50:12Z")
> [@Gilliver](#): > > Absolutely. > > Lets say John and Pete are out walking around looking for houses that they might be able to hit later that night. An officer sees them and gets a bad vibe so he stops and asks what they are doing and finds out who they are. They haven’t done anything wrong up to that point, but like I said the cop just has a vibe about where they are walking and what they might be up to. > > John and Pete know that they can still hit a house that night, but chances are the police will come straight to them to ask if they know anything about the burglary. > > Chances are they will go home instead of committing any crimes since they have been ID’d in the area. > > Lets say John and Pete are out walking around, but are up to nothing bad but the officer gets a bad vibe and does the same thing. A burglary in the same area is committed later that night by someone else. Now the cops may go to the innocent John and Pete and ask if they know anything and even though they had nothing to do with it, they want to prove their innocence and might be able to name someone else in the area they saw that might be the responsible party. > > Hey, Ted Bundy was caught in Pensacola by a cop who just got a bad vibe. Well, I suppose being the subject of a cop’s “bad vibe” is perfectly acceptable if the target is actually guilty of something, or if they’re proportionately subject to that type of thing. But what about the people who didn’t do anything wrong, but still get put in this position all the time? Is that fair to them? And we all know that some people are put in the position a lot more than others. I rarely if ever would be, and it’s not just because I’m so specially law-abiding. I could be exactly as law-abiding, but just look less like a nice white girl, and cops would magically have a lot more bad vibes about me. Ted Bundy was a charming white guy, and most cops would (and did) see him and find nothing suspicious. I suppose we could suspect every charming white guy and violate their rights, and no doubt some would actually turn out to be serial killers, but I’m not sure that the ends would justify the means. Of course, serial killers are a special type of criminal…most criminals are just opportunists. Treating an innocent person as a likely criminal is a great way to make them into one. There’s just no way to fairly target people based on “bad vibes”. There’s profiling, or there’s articulable suspicion/probable cause. The second we give credence to “bad vibes”, we sanction discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/111 "2011-01-01T07:25:04Z")
My flight on Monday to JFK was diverted to Detroit. I was with my Japanese colleagues and since I’m an American, I get though customs faster. I’m outside of customs, but in the area where the bags are re-checked, and I’m waiting for my colleagues to get though, so I decided to wait there where they could easily see me. Note that I’m past all customs. I plug in my cell phone and laptop to get recharged, and I’m trying to get a flight into New York sometime before the New Year. While we are not yet in the general public area, there are many people ther3e who are waiting for their companions. 20 million Homeland Security people and airline people walk by me, without saying anything, until some badge-heavy prick with a hard-on decides to hassle me. Dick: What are you doing? Me: Is there a problem? (Neutral voice, no excitement) Dick: What are you doing? Me: Is there a problem? (Neutral voice, no excitement) Dick: What are you doing? Me: Is there a problem? (Neutral voice, no excitement) Dick: What are you doing? Me: Is there a problem? (Neutral voice, no excitement) Dick: What are you doing? Me: Is there a problem? (Neutral voice, no excitement) Dick: You can’t charge your laptop here. Me: I see. (Unplugs the laptop. I don’t argue with cops, but I provide no further information than required by law. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/112 "2011-01-01T09:16:36Z")
I have no problem with standing up for your rights. I do have a problem with whining about the natural consequences of doing so. If you want to be Rosa Parks, you have to take the risk of actually being arrested. I personally would rather do the anonymous letter variation. If everyone would do it, it would be pretty effective, and the risk to me is minimal. And I definitely wouldn’t sully the name of Ms. Parks by invoking her on something that is much less important. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/113 "2011-01-01T13:37:15Z")
> [@Gilliver](#): > > Hey, Ted Bundy was caught in Pensacola by a cop who just got a bad vibe. No, Ted Bundy was caught because his gettaway vehicle was a Volkswagon Bug 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/114 "2011-01-01T17:02:20Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Cops are public servants like garbagemen. It is in the public interest for someone to have the balls to remind them once in a while. And you are (presumably) a citizen or legal resident - pay your taxes so that the next time you need a cop/fireman/ambulance worker, they can actually save your sorry ass. I’m being inflammatory because I’m in an asshole mood - but still… ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/115 "2011-01-01T17:39:31Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > 20 million Homeland Security people and airline people walk by me, without saying anything, until some badge-heavy prick with a hard-on decides to hassle me. > > Dick: What are you doing? > Me: Is there a problem? (Neutral voice, no excitement) > > Dick: What are you doing? > Me: Is there a problem? (Neutral voice, no excitement) > > Dick: What are you doing? > Me: Is there a problem? (Neutral voice, no excitement) > > Dick: What are you doing? > Me: Is there a problem? (Neutral voice, no excitement) > > Dick: What are you doing? > Me: Is there a problem? (Neutral voice, no excitement) > > Dick: You can’t charge your laptop here. > Me: I see. (Unplugs the laptop. > > I don’t argue with cops, but I provide no further information than required by law. Well you certainly showed him.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/116 "2011-01-01T19:13:03Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > However, I also respect that the officer has a duty to ask questions if through my actions I’ve given him reason to be suspicious. Sure, but failure to produce ID is not reason to be suspicious, legally. IANAL, but AFAIK [ul][li]You do **not** have to produce ID, nor are you under any legal obligation to carry ID with you. If the cop said you did, he was either mistaken or lying.[_]You do have to identify yourself - name, address, and date of birth.[/li][li]You never have to answer any questions from any cop, under any circumstances. [_]Failure to answer questions is not probable cause for arrest. Never.[/ul]This has come up for me in the past, although not in the same way as the OP. [/li] The key is to strike a balance between knowing your rights, and not arguing with a cop. You don’t have to prove him wrong, even when he is. You also don’t have to do everything he says. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/117 "2011-01-01T19:51:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You _do_ have to identify yourself - name, address, and date of birth. I am in Ohio, and we have a Stop and Identify Statue (ORC 2921.29). According to the law, I am only obligated to provide my name, address, or date of birth to an LEO if a) the LEO has RAS I am committing, have committed, or am about to commit a crime, or b) the LEO has RAS I have witnessed a crime. The problem, obviously, is that I have no idea if the LEO really has RAS, which means I had better provide the information or else be charged with a crime. > [@Shodan](#): > > You never have to answer any questions from any cop, under any circumstances. Failure to answer questions is not probable cause for arrest. Never. IANAL, but I believe this is only true if you are suspected of committing a crime. Let’s say you’re walking down the street, and you see a man with a gun and facemask run out of a bank and head north on Main St. A sheriff’s deputy stops by a few seconds later and asks if you saw a robber exit the bank, and (if so) the direction he was traveling when he left the bank. Are you allowed to remain silent? No. I believe that, in most states, you would be committing a crime by \*not \*answering his questions. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/118 "2011-01-01T19:52:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well you certainly showed him.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: back to you. What would you do if you have such brilliance? Get into an argument with an asshole? That would really show him. The guy was just being a dick. I’m outside of customs area. Everyone in airports recharges their laptops anywhere there is an outlet. I’m not going to answer stupidly obvious questions what I’m doing either in airports or outside stores in winter. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/119 "2011-01-01T20:30:45Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > :rolleyes: back to you. > > What would you do if you have such brilliance? Get into an argument with an asshole? That would really show him. No, he probably would have just told the guy that he was charging his laptop- just like 99.9% of other people would have done. But like he said, you really stuck it to him good. ---
**Author:** ![EKDS5k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c5a1d2/32.png) [@EKDS5k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EKDS5k)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2011, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592/120 "2011-01-02T09:43:31Z")
Whenever I see a discussion like this, I always have a hard time deciding if I’m stupid, sheltered, or just Canadian. I should think that if I was stopped by a police officer, even a dick one, in the situation described by the OP, I would just tell him I’m walking because I only live a couple blocks away. I would even _gasp_ give him my name and address, even if I wasn’t required to do so. Seriously what is the harm? He’s going to forget about it in 10 minutes anyway, when he realises I’m not up to anything. > [@Blackberry](#): > > Is there some reason to believe that would have actually helped? I, for one, would definitely prefer if the cops looked straight ahead and never watched or spoke to anybody while they were out in public. Especially at night. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-pedestrian-encounter-rights-violated-what-would-you-have-done/565592.md?page=7)