# Police response during mass shooting event {Not Gun Control, 2nd Amendment or Politics} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165 "2022-05-26T18:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/341 "2022-05-29T16:37:29Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But not when there is (or has been) active shooting and the only way to achieve this involves _waiting_ for the perfect means to enter. You are describing the tactics appropriate for a barricaded hostage. I’m hearing universal agreement that these are the wrong tactics in this situation. If you can’t storm a room with an element of surprise then you’re left with a noisy delayed entry. What response do you expect from someone who was killing children indiscriminately? I would expect the sound of screaming children as they’re mowed down. . Based on pictures we have seen of the windows there’s no way to physically enter through them in a timely manner because of the aluminum grids. You would be picked off at the shooter’s leisure. If they can’t quickly get through the door or the window then the next best thing is a sniper. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/342 "2022-05-29T16:41:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you can’t storm a room with an element of surprise then you’re left with a noisy delayed entry. Yes, and I hear universal agreement from experts that if this is all you have for immediate entry, this is what you must do. And that training and documented procedures were clear about this. > [@Magiver](#): > > What response do you expect from someone who was killing children indiscriminately? I would expect the sound of screaming children as they’re mowed down. He has _already_ done that, and wounded children inside are bleeding out. I mean, perhaps you might try to make excuses for the wrong decision to wait on some basis of inadequate experience, confusion, command structure, whatever - but I’m scratching my head that you still seem to be disputing that it WAS the wrong decision when there seems to be universal agreement about that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/343 "2022-05-29T16:49:41Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > If the goal is to substantially reduce the death toll or the prevalence of school shootings, I have a fairly strong sense that “more training (or funding or screening or whatever) for police officers” will **not** be the answer. Unfortunately, this thread has been decoupled from certain alternatives, but I want to make clear that my participation in this thread should not be taken as an endorsement by me of the idea that police response should be the primary focus for preventing mass shootings. There is some worthy discussion here, but it is necessarily an incomplete discussion by virtue of the parameters of this thread. 100% agreed. When I talk about “terror,” I think you’re thinking I’m using the term to call the cops “cowards.” _I am not doing that_. I have no interest in judging their moral fibre. I’m just talking about how humans behave in the system as it’s set up. While there are training regimens that work to overcome human propensities–see Green Berets et al–it’s just not practical to have all small-town cops go through that level of training. As you say, if we’re serious about preventing mass shootings, police response cannot be our primary focus. To the extent that the police response here is worth discussing, it’s because this is incredibly strong evidence that _this approach doesn’t work._ ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/344 "2022-05-29T16:58:49Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I mean, perhaps you might try to make excuses for the wrong decision to wait on some basis of inadequate experience, confusion, command structure, whatever - but I’m scratching my head that you still seem to be disputing that it WAS the wrong decision when there seems to be universal agreement about that. Per the link above the killer shot out the door window so there was likely access to the lock. The officers should have been able to check the lock mechanism from other classroom doors to see how they release and entered quietly using a diversion from the window side of the room. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/345 "2022-05-29T16:59:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The post upthread that they used the janitor’s keys would contradict that statement. The border patrol, the ones who eventually went in, used the janitor’s keys. I’m sure they didn’t have their own keys to the school. I’m not talking about them; I’m talking about the school district police. > [@Magiver](#): > > Not having keys readily available is a massive fail between the school and police. Going through the window is not something they are going to be able to do with an element of surprise. the same applies to trying to destroy the door. All that does is give the shooter an opportunity to finish what he started and kill the remaining children. Man, it’s a good thing then that they denied the shooter the opportunity to finish what he started, by remaining outside sitting on their thumbs. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/346 "2022-05-29T17:13:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > While there are training regimens that work to overcome human propensities–see Green Berets et al–it’s just not practical to have all small-town cops go through that level of training. But certainly a police department specifically for the school district would have training for an active school shooter situation. Even if it was the only thing they were trained for. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/347 "2022-05-29T17:13:28Z")
The evidence is that the training was insufficient. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/348 "2022-05-29T17:14:27Z")
The locked door thing reminds me – in a ridiculously macabre way – of Blazing Saddles (33sec) **?NSFW? - LANGUAGE** : [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/z9yjcBRyNUo/hqdefault.jpg "Blazing Saddles - Shitload of dimes HD") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9yjcBRyNUo) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/349 "2022-05-29T17:14:50Z")
I have never before heard of a school district having its own police force. Is that common? 6 school cops in a town of 15k - which also has an ostensible SWAT Team? I would very much like to see the budget/training/gear the school police and SWAT Team received over the past decade or so. [The SWAT Team](https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdwgn/uvalde-swat-team-bragged-about-training-at-schools-on-facebook) visited the schools - in full battle regalia - to suss out the lay of the land. But NONE of these morons thought for a second, **“How do we get through a locked door?”** I’m not a LEO, but my impression is that a large component of increased school security is intended to address armed attackers. Doesn’t some small portion of such planning (and spending) consider how to deal with the attacker if they breach the perimeter? This is just a complete, massive fail. This is the one worst case scenario that justifies these entities’ existence, and they got an F-. I don’t care how many Officer Friendly and “Say No to drugs” sessions they conducted. And yeah, confronting an armed person sounds hella scary. But if you aren’t willing to do that part of your job, then you should look for another job. Moreover, if your training is worth a damn, a tried police force ought to have considerable advantages over an emotional suspect - no matter how heavily armed. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/350 "2022-05-29T17:18:44Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > But certainly a police department specifically for the school district would have training for an active school shooter situation. Even if it was the only thing they were trained for. You would think. considering we didn’t have police officers at the schools I went to as a kid I would expect their purpose is to meet the changing social conditions of today. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/351 "2022-05-29T17:23:35Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > But certainly a police department specifically for the school district would have training for an active school shooter situation. Even if it was the only thing they were trained for. But that doesn’t really alter @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness’s underlying point. Active shooter training and protocol dictates immediate forced entry by first responders, usually without optimal equipment or backup, leaving themselves horribly exposed and with no certainty of taking down the perpetrator. So even with the bravest and best first responders acting optimally, what we are talking about in this thread amounts to little more than the best possible way to rearrange the deckchairs on the Titanic. The far more important fundamental issues are for the “political” thread. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/352 "2022-05-29T17:30:39Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I have never before heard of a school district having its own police force. Is that common? Apparently it’s a thing in Texas. (And I never heard of it either, but I graduated high school in 1984 and don’t remember police in any of the schools I attended, and today many schools have police officers in the building, though they’re often called “school resource officers.”) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/353 "2022-05-29T17:34:21Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But that doesn’t really alter @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness’s underlying point. Active shooter training and protocol dictates immediate forced entry by first responders, usually without optimal equipment or backup, leaving themselves horribly exposed and with no certainty of taking down the perpetrator. That’s a fair point, but not exactly what I’m saying. Even if we suppose that a “go toward the gunfire” approach would have worked _the people trained in that approach didn’t take it_. We can’t rely on people following training that tells them to do something that goes against instinct, unless the training is like green-beret-level training, and that’s not practical on a wide scale. Changing the words of the training, _when it’s clear folks won’t follow it_, is the deck-chair rearrangement. In my classroom, I have some different tricks to get students to shut up and pay attention. If a trick doesn’t work–and they often don’t, especially in this year of the feral child–I try something else. I don’t blame the kids, I blame the system I’m using, and I use a different system. We gotta do the same thing here. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/354 "2022-05-29T17:35:13Z")
I would say that their training should be specific to the school(s) they are tasked to protect. The purpose of training for different scenarios is so that you have a solid base to work with when needed. You’re not going to have all the answers but the goal is to react and improvise quickly using previous training. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/355 "2022-05-29T17:43:38Z")
Nah. The problem isn’t with the training. They had the training that they needed. The problem is with the disconnect between training and actual human response to crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/356 "2022-05-29T18:14:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would say that their training should be specific to the school(s) they are tasked to protect. The purpose of training for different scenarios is so that you have a solid base to work with when needed. You’re not going to have all the answers but the goal is to react and improvise quickly using previous training. Just a couple of months ago, the Uvalde CISD police department (including the incident commander in this event) held active shooter training. They’re responsible for the eight schools in the district, including this one, although they held the training at the high school and probably thought that was the most likely target. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/357 "2022-05-29T18:17:24Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > My classroom door is metal. Does it open inward? If I understand you correctly you say you push on it to enter the classroom, but also say it can’t be forced from the outside because it’s in a steel frame. Can you elaborate on that? > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m absolutely certain that those ‘’‘bars’’’ are just extruded aluminum. It doesn’t matter because the windows slide up to open. There are plenty of pictures of people evacuating kids thru the open windows on the opposite side of the building. > [@Magiver](#): > > Based on pictures we have seen of the windows there’s no way to physically enter through them in a timely manner because of the aluminum grids. You would be picked off at the shooter’s leisure. The windows slide up to open, they didn’t have to break thru anything. They had 4 windows they could have used to observe and breach if they wanted to. There is no need to create obstacles to excuse police action when we already know they didn’t exist. > [@silenus](#): > > Unfucking believable. Not only all that, but the head of policing for the school district apparently had no idea how to get a key, or worse, didn’t think of trying to get a key for almost an hour. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > While there are training regimens that work to overcome human propensities–see Green Berets et al–it’s just not practical to have all small-town cops go through that level of training. No one needs Special Forces training for this, that’s not what they do. And yet these small town cops did have training for school shootings, as recently as two months ago. No one is saying they were untrained. What failed here is people ignoring the simplest safety protocols and doctrine for school shootings. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The problem is with the disconnect between training and actual human response to crisis. No, in this case it was one human beings reaction that caused all the problems. Unfortunately, he was in charge. Other officers had no problem reacting to evacuate kids from the other end of the school. Other officers finally called his bullshit and breached the room on their own. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/358 "2022-05-29T18:21:15Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Can you elaborate on that? Other way around. From the outside there is an protected lock and a metal handle. Door opens outwards - has to, per Fire Code. The inside latch mechanism is the crush bar I referenced previously. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/359 "2022-05-29T18:22:59Z")
Ok, thanks. I was having a hard time picturing it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/360 "2022-05-29T18:24:08Z")
Now I’m curious, security hinges? [![](https://i.stack.imgur.com/4Yf3e.jpg) ](https://i.stack.imgur.com/4Yf3e.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=19)