# Police response during mass shooting event {Not Gun Control, 2nd Amendment or Politics} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165 "2022-05-26T18:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/381 "2022-05-29T21:59:22Z")
One reason for school district police departments is that, at least in Texas, school district are not aligned with any other polity. So the Dallas school district is mostly in the city of Dallas, but actually contains addresses in like 12 other towns/suburbs. And there are big chunks of the city of Dallas that are not part of the Dallas school district. Uvale school district seems to be a rural district. For there to be 400 kids in a school that served 3 grades in such a thinly populated region, they probably pulled kids from multiple legally distinct towns, and the six schools may well have been in different towns. In these cases, having a school police force with clear jurisdiction over the whole district can streamline a lot of things. However, i would sure as fuck expect them not to be the go to for this sort of situation. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/382 "2022-05-29T22:02:14Z")
I think plenty of states have school districts that straddle multiple towns or cities. For example, the high school I attended in Connecticut included students from three towns. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/383 "2022-05-29T22:12:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > These were not ground-level windows so it’s not a simple thing to climb up and into the opening. Well, an off duty policeman was able to borrow a shotgun from his barber, I’m guessing a few ladders shouldn’t have been too hard to come by. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/384 "2022-05-29T22:25:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > These were not ground-level windows > [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I’m guessing a few ladders shouldn’t have been too hard to come by. The school is a single story building, right? I assume that Magiver is saying that the windows did not literally reach to the ground. No need for ladders, the latest insurmountable obstacle he’s throwing out there could be solved by standing on a chair. Probably not even that is necessary, see photos above. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/385 "2022-05-29T22:42:51Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Of course it would. It would be even easier and more survivable to do nothing. I’m really not understanding the thought process by which you’re approaching this. The question is not what would be easy and survivable, it’s what course of action is required to _ensure_ that you engage the shooter _as quickly as possible_ . It’s not a function of “easy”. Climbing UP into a window from ground level makes you 100 percent vulnerable because the ground is lower than the floor of the room. There’s no shooting your way into the room while doing this. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/386 "2022-05-29T22:47:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not a function of “easy”. Climbing UP into a window from ground level makes you 100 percent vulnerable because the ground is lower than the floor of the room. Now you’re just equivocating on two senses of “easy”. I made my sense perfectly clear: > [@Riemann](#): > > it appears that you could break through these windows quite easily (in a purely physical sense) Nobody is questioning the fact that it would not be “easy” to do in the sense that it would leave you horrendously exposed and require great bravery. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/387 "2022-05-29T22:48:34Z")
I’m not very coordinated or athletic, and I could totally climb through that window while shooting. And I could definitely climb through that window while my partner right next to me is shooting, and then shoot while he climbs through. Are we talking about wheelchair-bound police officers here, or something? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/388 "2022-05-29T22:48:36Z")
Big windows, 2 to a room. 2 enter, 2 give cover. But that is still stupid. Cover from the windows while the entry teams come in both doors. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/389 "2022-05-29T22:51:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > These were not ground-level windows Look at the pictures. The windows are just above waist-level of the cops. Yes, it’s going to take an effort to hoist yourself (and your equipment) through the window, but you would have plenty of help. > [@Magiver](#): > > Climbing UP into a window from ground level makes you 100 percent vulnerable because the ground is lower than the floor of the room. There’s no shooting your way into the room while doing this. But there would be officers at the window next to you with guns at the ready. And we’ve already figured the best plan would be to enter the room in which the shooter was not present. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/390 "2022-05-29T22:53:55Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Well, an off duty policeman was able to borrow a shotgun from his barber, I’m guessing a few ladders shouldn’t have been too hard to come by. And how does a ladder make this an easier method of entry? Have you ever used a ladder to get to a platform? Imagine holding a gun and hanging onto the ladder while you swing 1 leg over the window ledge. The police would have much more control over the situation by breaking out the window and trying to shoot their target, ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/391 "2022-05-29T22:58:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The police would have much more control over the situation by breaking out the window and trying to shoot their target, That may have been better, I don’t know that is not an area of knowledge I have. I do know that ANYTHING would have been better than the NOTHING that was done for too long. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/392 "2022-05-29T23:04:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And how does a ladder make this an easier method of entry? I’m pretty sure the use of a ladder was suggested only in response to your ambiguous wording that was misinterpreted as saying that the windows were not on the first (ground) floor. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/393 "2022-05-29T23:05:57Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > But there would be officers at the window next to you with guns at the ready. And we’ve already figured the best plan would be to enter the room in which the shooter was not present. I don’t think they knew where he was. He was hiding when they came through the door and they would have been in a prime position to shoot. They were able to kill him even though he tried to shoot at them. Crawling through a window would have gone badly in the transition. Now if he was actively shooting kids then they would have had a target to focus on from outside the window of the active room. that gives a 2nd team time to enter the unoccupied room and advance on him from a 2nd front. If the Janitor was there the whole time with keys then the door was the best point of entry with the windows used as crossfire and diversion from outside. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/394 "2022-05-29T23:13:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If the Janitor was there the whole time with keys Again, I really don’t understand the thought process with which you keep throwing out one counterfactual after another. The issue we were discussing is not the optimal tactics for entry in ideal circumstances. As far as I’m concerned, the question under debate in the recent part of the thread was whether the delay in entry to engage the shooter (universally agreed to be a mistake) had _any_ justification based on sheer physical impossibility of gaining access. And whatever the situation with the door, it’s pretty clear now that entering through the windows was quite feasible. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/395 "2022-05-29T23:13:57Z")
Nmind ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/396 "2022-05-29T23:17:01Z")
There was a parent that got in and got her daughters and others out. There was an off duty cop who got in and got his kid, and others out. It was clearly NOT an impenetrable building. While the nineteen cops were busy handcuffing and tackling parents to the ground! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/397 "2022-05-29T23:23:14Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > . And whatever the situation with the door, it’s pretty clear now that entering through the windows was quite feasible. I disagree. Shooting from outside yes. Pulling yourself up and over the windowsill no. You would be completely vulnerable. You’ll get mowed down in the attempt. You have no way of defending yourself in the transition. About the best way to attempt this would be from a higher platform like the bed of a truck driven along the edge of the wall. And that assumes the AC units aren’t blocking them. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/398 "2022-05-29T23:29:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You would be completely vulnerable. You’ll get mowed down in the attempt. Nevertheless, I think active shooter training and protocols dictate that this is the duty of the first responders, when children have _already_ been mown down. And if the version of events described by the Feds is correct, when BORTAC agents arrived they must have been ready and willing to go in through the windows immediately, well before the Janitor arrived with the key to the door. At that point, the windows were the only way in. > [@Magiver](#): > > About the best way to attempt this would be from a higher platform like the bed of a truck driven along the edge of the wall. Fine. So you’re not really disagreeing, just suggesting an _easier_ way to commence the engagement. (1) Try to shoot him through the windows. (2) If that doesn’t work, go in through the windows. But this does not equate to a claim that it was physically impossible to engage immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/399 "2022-05-29T23:39:16Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Nevertheless, I think active shooter training and protocols dictate that this is the duty of the first responders, when children have _already_ been mown down. when I say vulnerable I mean completely vulnerable. As in no chance of success. It completely ignores the likelihood that the kids would be mowed down in between people killed attempting to climb through the window. The best bet would be 2 sets of 3 people shooting from outside. If one set engages the shooter then the other set can gain access to the other room. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2022, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/400 "2022-05-29T23:40:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The best bet would be 2 sets of 3 people shooting from outside. If one set engages the shooter then the other set can gain access to the other room. And if that just doesn’t work, you would _advocate_ then (assuming no equipment to breach the door on hand) just doing nothing until the janitor arrives with the key, while kids bleed out, rather then attempting to enter through the windows? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=21)