# Police response during mass shooting event {Not Gun Control, 2nd Amendment or Politics} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165 "2022-05-26T18:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/421 "2022-05-30T13:35:13Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Look back at mass shootings. Many ended when police confronted the shooter, either by suicide or suicide by cop. Not to be snarky, but how else do mass shootings end? Unless the shooter kills himself before the cops arrive, he kills himself when confronted by the cops, gets shot by police, or is taken into custody. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/422 "2022-05-30T13:37:16Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Part of figuring out what went wrong is assigning responsibility to people that fucked up the protocol. If you don’t do that, you don’t know where the failure point in the plan is. > > And it’s bananas to throw the whole plan out, since the plan worked as soon as they followed it. They confronted the shooter and ended the situation in about a minute. I don’t know how to put this so you understand my point. A plan that isn’t followed is a worthless plan. It was only followed after it was too late to save the kids that had been shot. We know what the failure point was. Next time, there will be different people in the places in the plan, but that won’t change the failure point, because the failure point is human nature. Insisting it’s a good plan because it worked once it was followed has a very “First, assume the cow is a sphere” vibe. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/423 "2022-05-30T14:05:47Z")
Does it matter what kind of hinges a door has? Not suggesting that any or all of these are applicable in this case, but known techniques for emergency breaching include breaching shotguns shooting loads that physically destroy metal components, to high explosives (works on heavy steel doors). ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/424 "2022-05-30T14:16:37Z")
If the door doesn’t have security hinge pins then this $18 tool, [https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0414/0023/8233/products/image\_1024x1024.jpg?v=1604785533](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0414/0023/8233/products/image_1024x1024.jpg?v=1604785533) carried by every physical [pen tester](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetration_test), makes keys on doors with exposed hinges superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/425 "2022-05-30T14:19:21Z")
What is it and what does it do? The link is less useful than I expected. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/426 "2022-05-30T14:21:38Z")
> **[Hammerless Hinge Pin Tool - Heavy Duty](https://www.redteamtools.com/hammerless-hinge-tool)** > > Price: USD 17.5 ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/427 "2022-05-30T14:29:05Z")
If you are trying to secure a room, having the hinges on the outside would be counterproductive, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/428 "2022-05-30T14:29:59Z")
But that only works if the hinge is on the outside. That is pretty uncommon. A schoolroom door might well have outside hinges but I’ve seen doors open in or out. I feel like most I’ve seen the door opens into the classroom and so the hinge is also on the inside. Doors on stores and theaters should open out in case of fire. The main doors into a school should follow this logic. But those do use heavy duty security hinges from what I’ve noticed. Considering how many tools allow easy hinge pin removal if a basic hinge, that tool is nice but not at all needed. * * * **Ike** , door for public places do have external hinges due to fire safety concerns. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/429 "2022-05-30T14:31:52Z")
I really do not see why people here find the police response so terrible: - Realize you need something to breach the doors-- 5 mins? --Most people would take longer, some people need 5 mins to realize they can drive away after putting gas in their car. - Deciding how to do it —10 mins? — Some folks on a message board I frequent need around a week to finish arguing about the best way to do it. - Actually getting the stuff out of the truck into the building/ finding the key & confirming it is the right key! (No fun fiddling with the wrong key when someone is shooting though the door you’re not opening) —10 mins? - preparing to actually go in— 10 min? Around 40 mins is really not so bad as people are making it out to be. I not saying it is great, but it is better than most of us would manage. They did run in, towards the sound of gunfire, got shot (“straved”) — that gave them pause and they needed a little time to come up with a game plan. They did in a reasonably timely manner. To convince me differently you’d have to show me actual footage of you personally doing better in an active shooter incident. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/430 "2022-05-30T14:36:53Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > **Ike** , door for public places do have external hinges due to fire safety concerns. As does every single outside door at my school. Code is very strict on that, and we get a fire inspection every 4 years. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/431 "2022-05-30T14:37:56Z")
That is what I would expect, but I’m sure it varies by state. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/432 "2022-05-30T14:46:58Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > They did in a reasonably timely manner. To convince me differently you’d have to show me actual footage of you personally doing better in an active shooter incident. Isn’t the more useful standard what another department, or another incident commander, might have done ? We’re just people on a message board. We don’t really have to be the reference standard, but we _do_ get the right to render opinions on such things. And in this case, the disappointment is shared by a few fairly highly-placed law enforcement officials and – it seems – the Department of Justice (who will be investigating the response). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/433 "2022-05-30T14:51:52Z")
It appear to be a tool to knock out hinge pins. Something unlikely to be usable on the school doors. I am still waiting to find out if that door could have been breached without specialized equipment, and if not why on earth wasn’t the key found immediately? I also have not heard a good reason entry through the windows was not attempted either. Except for the details on the door, it was highly likely the door was designed not be breachable from outside, and that probably considered a safety feature. Otherwise I think the reason for all the failures here is good old incompetence. And probably at the same average level of incompetence we would see throughout the country. One more thing I want to know, how many kids were shot since the point where the police arrived? There is a story about the psycho shooting another child who cried for help after the police were there, I’d like to know if that story is true, with the exact details. I hope you’ll excuse me if I wait before reading any more misleading and nonsensical media reports until this information gets verified and consolidated, and is clearly not self serving by the media itself. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/434 "2022-05-30T14:59:49Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > I really do not see why people here find the police response so terrible: 40 minutes “thinking and preparation time”? Are you kidding me? I’m kind of astonished that you think any of your times are remotely applicable in a context where you know there is an **active shooter** with a bunch of kids inside the room. > [@The\_Librarian](#): > > To convince me differently you’d have to show me actual footage of you personally doing better in an active shooter incident. How about comparing to what your processing time would be if you were a parent, and knew that your own child was likely bleeding out inside that room. I think it would be more like: - Arrive at locked door, realize you cannot get in. - 30 seconds later, arrive at the exterior windows and smash them And I would expect trained professional first responders to do the same - in accord with their training and written “active shooter” protocol to engage as quickly as possible - and of course they have weapons to attempt to engage through the windows. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/435 "2022-05-30T15:04:16Z")
~40 mins really isn’t very long to determine and execute an appropriate response in a dangerous situation. I’d like to see somebody comment on this who is an independent expert, or at least has experience, in such situations. Not some elected yahoo who wants to make himself look good at the expense of others. It boggles the mind how cops always stand by their colleagues when they really screwed up, and now are tumbling over each other to condemn others who faced a genuinely dangerous and difficult situation. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/436 "2022-05-30T15:05:50Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > ~40 mins really isn’t very long to determine and execute an appropriate response in a dangerous situation. You’re making exactly the same mistake that they made on the day. This much thinking and preparation is appropriate when you have a barricaded hostage taker who has not yet harmed anyone. That was not the situation, he was unambiguously an active shooter. Children were already dying. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/437 "2022-05-30T15:06:09Z")
See post 319. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/438 "2022-05-30T15:06:24Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > 30 seconds later, arrive at the exterior windows and smash them Or spend 15 minutes banging on the door, only to get shot. You really have a distorted view of how people perform under pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/439 "2022-05-30T15:14:36Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > probably at the same average level of incompetence we would see throughout the country. No, these were guys who live on image and propaganda. They are uniformed, equiped and trained for this moment. They are required to hone their skills on the gunnery range. They are given privileges and authority not granted to the average citizen. The $60,000/yr is not for riding around in the patrol car and wearing a gun in the coffee shop. It’s for that rare 3 minutes that will occur only once in a lifetime. When everything they have been given is called upon for action. The failure of this department was well above average. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/440 "2022-05-30T15:14:52Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > This is simply not true. Four windows across two classrooms. The windows don’t need to be broken, they slide up. The shooter can only see one classroom at a time. Look in the windows to locate which room the shooter was in, enter from the other classroom. If you can’t see the shooter, he has to be either in the closet or the bathroom. Cover those and you are good to go. It’s not like this was a horror movie and the shooter was going to rise up from underneath a pile of corpses, firing AR15s with both hands in slow motion. You wouldn’t be able to open a locked window without breaking it to get to the lock. That would likely flush the shooter out into the open into a shooting event. If all the windows are covered by police with line of fire into the room then it would be possible for the shooter to be contained to one room while the other room is entered. The fly in the ointment would be the use of students as a shield by the shooter. This is why the best approach is to silently and quickly enter the room with a key. This is reportedly what they were waiting on. The shooter had already shot through the door at officers so breaching it needed to be done quietly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=23)