# Police response during mass shooting event {Not Gun Control, 2nd Amendment or Politics} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165 "2022-05-26T18:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/481 "2022-05-30T17:03:06Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > How would he do this? How would he use kids as shields? Point the same gun he used to kill their classmates at them and tell them to stand in a line in front of him. His entire purpose for being there was to kill them in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/482 "2022-05-30T17:18:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s exactly the situation where you don’t take a few minutes to figure out what to do. So without knowing what they’re dealing with you want them to do what? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/483 "2022-05-30T17:20:59Z")
Really? The first paragraph (Chicano Press), says she was cuffed, convinced them to let her free. She then vaulted over the barricade and then entered the school. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/484 "2022-05-30T17:27:15Z")
I guess asking them to do what they do with, unarmed, civilians in traffic stops is too much. Ya know, jerk that smoke wagon and pull the fucking trigger 'til it goes “click”? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/485 "2022-05-30T17:29:04Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > While I acknowledge that it really doesn’t look good, I keep wondering how much of this training is in breaching doors or windows. This is absurd. Every situation will be different. A mass shooting in a shopping mall will require police to advance over fountains and planters and through the maze of chairs in a food court. A mass shooting in a farmers market will require them to advance through and between merchant booths. And so on, and so forth, through any number of variable environments. The directive is to engage the shooter as rapidly as possible. Full stop. Do whatever it takes to achieve this. If you’re saying the police are excused in their appallingly slow response because they encountered an obstacle for which they had not specifically trained and were therefore baffled and stymied, we are well into the territory of “pour a circle of salt to confine the demon” magic. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/486 "2022-05-30T17:29:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So without knowing what they’re dealing with you want them to do what? You said shooting through the windows was a poor plan, then a few posts later you said it was certain to succeed. Are you planning on a full 360 here, going back to saying that they had no obvious next course of action to press to engage the shooter immediately, after they found they couldn’t open the door? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/487 "2022-05-30T17:31:10Z")
I was only trained to defend myself from bananas, pointed sticks are right out. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/488 "2022-05-30T17:31:39Z")
I remember when I was a kid, a house across the street caught fire. The FIRST ting the firemen did was use a big heavy bar to bust the cross pieces in every window. for ventilation. Immediately after, guys started chopping through the roof with axes. And - IIRC, firemen know something about ladders and things. Within 5-10 minutes, there some 15-20 cops on the scene. I don’t know how long it took for the fire truck to get there, but I’m not sure how long it would take to get ANYWHERE in a town of 15k. I don’t know about Uvalde TX, but I’m not sure when I have last seen a cop ANYWHERE without a bulletproof vest on. So you’ve got 1 (or 2?) locked doors on the double classrooms, and 2 windows per classroom. I haven’t heard anything about the windows being bulletproofed and barred. You divide into 5-6 groups, each armed with 1 axe/sledgehammer and a couple of shooters - probably stun grenades as well, and breach all windows and doors simultaneously. Hell, the windows were certainly low enough to break/shoot through, and if your cops ate too many donuts to clamber through them, prop a garbage can or anything under them to give them a boost. Sure - there would be some risk to the LEOs, but that is part of their job description, no? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/489 "2022-05-30T17:31:44Z")
Take the second class, at least you’ll be ready for cherries. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/490 "2022-05-30T17:32:57Z")
Sounds like a topic _custom made_ for a pit thread 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/491 "2022-05-30T17:35:29Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I was only trained to defend myself from bananas And in training, they weren’t even loaded. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/492 "2022-05-30T17:37:41Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > This is absurd. Every situation will be different. A mass shooting in a shopping mall will require police to advance over fountains and planters and through the maze of chairs in a food court. A mass shooting in a farmers market will require them to advance through and between merchant booths. And so on, and so forth, through any number of variable environments. This is the same logic that makes you expect that if a cop knows that bashing a “suspects” head into a brick wall is illegal then banging it into a brick patio is also illegal. There’s no way that’s reasonable. We need a court to rule on each of those separately. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/493 "2022-05-30T17:39:40Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You said shooting through the windows was a poor plan, then a few posts later you said it was certain to succeed. Are you planning on a full 360 here, going back to saying that they had no obvious next course of action to press to engage the shooter immediately, after they found they couldn’t open the door? You have to know what’s going on to form a plan. I was responding to Chronos statement about not taking a few minutes to figure out what do do. So again, the question is, without knowing what’s going on what do you want them to do that doesn’t involve taking a few minutes to figure out a plan? ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/494 "2022-05-30T17:40:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Point the same gun he used to kill their classmates at them and tell them to stand in a line in front of him. At this point he had no idea if any kids were alive because they were either lying in blood or smeared classmates blood on them and played dead. The only kid we know he shot for sure after police arrived was a child he caught using a phone to call 911. I think he had zero interest in the kids once the police arrived. If he was interested in a shield, he would have placed kids in front of the doors and windows during the hour he was lazing around for the police to do something. > [@Magiver](#): > > So without knowing what they’re dealing with you want them to do what? Windows. It’s been discussed repeatedly. > [@elbows](#): > > Really? The first paragraph (Chicano Press), says she was cuffed, convinced them to let her free. She then vaulted over the barricade and then entered the school. I’m not doubting the story, I was just wondering how she actually got _inside_ the school. From all I’ve seen, the police never opened any of the exterior doors, they evacuated kids thru the windows. All exterior doors should have been locked except for the one the teacher propped open. I don’t even think any police entered the school except thru the propped open door. It’s probably just bad reporting and she helped pull her kids thru windows. > [@Riemann](#): > > > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > > I was only trained to defend myself from bananas > > And in training, they weren’t even loaded. Not only that, they weren’t the correct weight so the throwing trajectory was way off, so you are never really prepared for a real banana onslaught. And I won’t even get into the green vs yellow banana conundrum. > [@Magiver](#): > > So again, the question is, without knowing what’s going on what do you want them to do that doesn’t involve taking a few minutes to figure out a plan? Nothing wrong with a few minutes. Everything is wrong with over an hour and then making the wrong decision. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/495 "2022-05-30T17:43:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You have to know what’s going on to form a plan. Is it in any dispute that they knew this was an active shooter? That is all the information you need to determine that the plan is to engage _as quickly as possible_, even if circumstances are dangerous and suboptimal. So if you cannot get in the door, just how many minutes does it take to work out that you should next try the windows? Again, if your own child was inside that room possibly bleeding out, how long do you really think it would take you to figure this out? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/496 "2022-05-30T17:57:52Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Windows. It’s been discussed repeatedly. No, you don’t understand the question. the police don’t know what the situation is inside the classroom. Are they all dead? Are there kids being used as shields in a suicide by cop finale? > [@mordecaiB](#): > > I think he had zero interest in the kids once the police arrived. That doesn’t line up with his intent to kill them in the first place. Using them as shields seems like the obvious next step. The police need to know what’s going on. As has been discussed, they are not going to be able to enter the room from a window unannounced and that absolutely risks more shooting of children. the choices are not limited to: “wait an hour for a key” or “shoot through the window without knowing where the kids are” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/497 "2022-05-30T18:00:16Z")
Do you know the police don’t know the situation in the classroom? You appear to be stating this as a fact. Can you cite it please? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/498 "2022-05-30T18:06:06Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Again, if your own child was inside that room possibly bleeding out, how long do you really think it would take you to figure this out? > [@mordecaiB](#): > > Nothing wrong with a few minutes. If he is actively shooting kids then you have a target. If he isn’t then you work on a coordinated plan of action. It’s unlikely that he was standing in plain sight based on the knowledge he was hiding in a closet. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/499 "2022-05-30T18:08:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the police don’t know what the situation is inside the classroom. Are they all dead? Are there kids being used as shields in a suicide by cop finale? All the police _need_ to know is that he is an active shooter, which they certainly knew. Training and documented protocols then dictate unambiguously that you engage _as quickly as possible_, even if there is chaos, uncertainty and risk. You are making exactly the same error that law enforcement made on the day. After shots have been fired, you do _not_ revert to the much more cautious and nuanced approach that is appropriate with a hostage taker who has not yet harmed anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/500 "2022-05-30T18:10:22Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Are you planning on a full 360 here You may find **[this discussion](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-magiver/937851/71)** educational. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=26)