# Police response during mass shooting event {Not Gun Control, 2nd Amendment or Politics} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165 "2022-05-26T18:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/501 "2022-05-30T18:11:53Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > All the police _need_ to know is that he is an active shooter, which they certainly knew. yes, he has to be actively shooting. Hiding in a closet is not actively shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/502 "2022-05-30T18:14:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If he is actively shooting kids then you have a target. If he isn’t then you work on a coordinated plan of action. You do realize that “active shooter” engagement tactics do not apply only when you are literally hearing gunfire _right now_? They apply from the moment he _starts_ shooting until he is neutralized. You absolutely do not say - “Well, he shot a bunch of kids a few minutes ago, but I don’t hear any more gunfire, maybe he’s not planning to shoot _any more_. Let’s wait and see.” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/503 "2022-05-30T18:14:22Z")
I’m thinking the best way to deal with an active shooter is not to ask if he’s actively shooting at this moment . . . but that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/504 "2022-05-30T18:14:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If he is actively shooting kids then you have a target. If he isn’t then you work on a coordinated plan of action. That really doesn’t jibe with **any** of the post-Columbine active shooter policies. Once you’re an active shooter and they have reason to believe you’ve shot somebody – you’re an active shooter until they take you out or you take yourself out. They operate on the assumption that there may be wounded who can be saved, and/or that you may be about to kill more people. The active shooter policy – post-Columbine – is: you go in – 1, 2, 3, or 4 of you if that’s what you have. It is a bit baffling why people are arguing against this so forcefully. It’s literally in black-and-white. > [@Magiver](#): > > It’s unlikely that he was standing in plain sight based on the knowledge he was hiding in a closet. He may very well have entered that closet the moment he realized that they had a key and were about to enter the room (ETA: ie, saw or heard the lock being opened). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/505 "2022-05-30T18:15:33Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You are making exactly the same error that law enforcement made on the day. After shots have been fired, you do _not_ revert to the much more cautious and nuanced approach that is appropriate with a hostage taker who has not yet harmed anyone. You do if he is using the kids as a shield. Again, there’s a difference between what the police did and the suggestion that you fire through the window without knowing what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/506 "2022-05-30T18:16:16Z")
I didn’t see anybody suggest that they only deploy totally blind law enforcement personnel. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/507 "2022-05-30T18:16:58Z")
---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/508 "2022-05-30T18:18:04Z")
**Modnote** : This is beginning to push it at this point. You no longer seem to be engaging honestly with other posters. I’m going to ask you to stop posting in this thread for now on. No warning issued, but you are now only being disruptive. Please note your posting in this thread was and is being discussed by the mods. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/509 "2022-05-30T18:27:21Z")
This topic was automatically opened after 9 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/510 "2022-05-30T18:28:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You do if he is using the kids as a shield. I do not believe that there is any such exception in active shooter tactics. You still engage _as quickly as possible_, you do not hang back to gather intelligence. I’m no expert, but I think this would mean that you press immediately to get in a position where you are aiming your weapon at him and _ready_ to fire. Obviously you would not shoot through a child who is between you. > [@Magiver](#): > > Again, there’s a difference between what the police did and the suggestion that you fire through the window without knowing what’s going on. You are the one who claimed that shooting through the window was certain to succeed, and pushed back against my suggestion that entry through the window might also be necessary. If he were using children as a shield, you would likely have to enter the room. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/511 "2022-05-30T18:28:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s exactly the situation where you don’t take a few minutes to figure out what to do. So what do you do? I’ve read all the doctrine pieces you all quoted, I didn’t get an answer from there. Yet people are calling the question absurd. So it must be absolutely trivial. What am I missing? I came running from my desk: put my vest on and ran into the building towards the sound of gunfire. Now I’m at a locked reinforced door: what do I do? (Turning around to go outside is explicitly against established doctrine.) ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/512 "2022-05-30T18:28:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, you don’t understand the question. the police don’t know what the situation is inside the classroom. Are they all dead? Are there kids being used as shields in a suicide by cop finale? Yes I understand the question. There were four windows for police to look into. Instead they waited in the hall and used their psychic powers to determine what the shooter was doing. Sending out 2 cops per window would have left at least 10 to stand around the hallway doing nothing. Believe it or not, officers in charge can give more than one order and can delegate responsibilities to other officers. Telling all those officers to sit in place for over an hour when they could have been used otherwise is an awful strategy. > [@Magiver](#): > > The police need to know what’s going on. As has been discussed, they are not going to be able to enter the room from a window unannounced and that absolutely risks more shooting of children. You really need to make up your mind. They can look into the windows first, that was their _only_ option. Yet it seems to have been totally overlooked by the lead officer. Can you link us to a few cases where an active shooter lined up hostages for protection? Not a hostage situation, a live shooter. > [@Magiver](#): > > If he is actively shooting kids then you have a target. If he isn’t then you work on a coordinated plan of action. It’s unlikely that he was standing in plain sight based on the knowledge he was hiding in a closet Yes, that’s the couple of minutes, not an hour. They didn’t follow their own plans and 22 people ended up dead, who knows how many wounded and anyone that survived it going to have some pretty serious trauma to work thru. > [@Magiver](#): > > yes, he has to be actively shooting. Hiding in a closet is not actively shooting. Dude, he actively shot one kid for using a phone while officers waited outside. I don’t know how much more active he would need to be for you, but that’s plenty active for most people. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > It is a bit baffling why people are arguing against this so forcefully. It’s literally in black-and-white. I agree, this policy is nationwide for active shooters because we have found it works best in the situation. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > No warning issued, but you are now only being disruptive. Thank you. You can ignore my message, I should have gave you more time. Sorry 'bout that. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/513 "2022-05-30T18:42:12Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Turning around to go outside is explicitly against established doctrine. Huh? Are you trying to exclude the possibility of engaging the shooter through the windows by characterizing this as “turning around to go outside”? If there is any such “established doctrine”, that very obviously isn’t what it means. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/514 "2022-05-30T18:42:19Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I know this wasn’t the main thrust of your comment, but I don’t think it’s true. In situations where first responders have entered a horrific scene and done their best to engage an active shooter, putting themselves in harms way without adequate backup, I really can’t recall a lot of second guessing if the outcome isn’t ideal. I guess the exception might be if the first responder accidentally harms someone innocent. I wouldn’t be so sure about that exception. For example… With a show of hands, how many people heard about how a security officer responded immediately and intervened heroically in the Colorado STEM School shooting, thus proving that the best way to reduce harm from criminal gun violence is “a good guy with a gun”? Okay, now another show of hands. How many heard that the [security officer shot two students after mistakenly firing on responding law enforcement with a gun he wasn’t supposed to have](https://www.denverpost.com/2020/01/24/stem-school-shooting-colorado-security-guard/)? ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/515 "2022-05-30T18:42:20Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > You no longer seem to be engaging honestly with other posters. I’m going to ask you to stop posting in this thread for now on. Thank you. Perhaps now we can continue a robust discussion without having to repeat the same points ad nauseum. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/516 "2022-05-30T18:43:53Z")
Shoulda asked for a pony . . . better odds. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/517 "2022-05-30T18:50:57Z")
Has anyone heard whether, at any point, any responder looked in one of the classroom windows? I haven’t, and I’m not sure why they wouldn’t have. There were 4 windows. The gunman couldn’t cover all 4 at the same time. Also, I think folk are underestimating the advantage a group of ostensibly trained and equipped responders have over a teenage Wendy’s employee. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/518 "2022-05-30T18:51:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > When the media has incomplete information, that’s one thing. When the incorrect information is coming from the police department themselves, that’s another thing entirely. The statement by the police is the verification the media, and we, should be waiting for, and when it’s wrong, it makes it much harder to get the truth. It is a huge problem. I already mentioned police releasing misinformation is common, now the usual reasons have a crisis situation with people panicking and jumping to mistaken conclusions. I don’t know put something up on Facebook from the police about having the suspect in custody, but it never should have happened. I think it’s unlikely they have a competent public information officer and even if they have the position I doubt the have the discipline to release information through that one source. However, we are also supposed to be able to rely on the media to understand these problems and not release unconfirmed information and not add to the problem by screaming about how the information keeps changing when they know that it will. The same problem keeps cropping up, human systems are highly prone to failure because the components are not reliable. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/519 "2022-05-30T18:51:52Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > So what do you do? It’s challenging to repeat what has been covered at some length over the totality of this thread, but … We are given to believe that the shooter was in a ‘suite’ with two interconnected classrooms (rooms 111 and 112), that there was some sort of connecting ‘hallway’ (or maybe a simple door) between the rooms, that both rooms had windows to the outside, and that both rooms had doors to the inside of the school. Those doors were apparently locked (probably by the gunman). So there were multiple ways that law enforcement could visually ‘inspect’ the two rooms to determine who was where, and there were multiple points of entry that could be used – particularly if they knew where the shooter _and_ the kids where – including entering from more than one point simultaneously (to distract the shooter). If the janitor whose keys were eventually used to grant law enforcement access to the classroom was the only non-invasive way that these officers could enter that classroom … then that’s a big problem. If they didn’t have the basic tools that they might need for something for which they trained … that’s a big problem. If the training didn’t tell them what to do if there was an active shooter behind a locked door … that’s a big problem. From what we’ve seen and heard so far, there are multiple points of failure _even after_ the teacher who left a secured door wide open for a lunatic with a semi-automatic rifle or two to enter. But the basic active shooter policy – ridiculously applicable here – is you go in. **You go in.** You do not wait. You act. That wasn’t done in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/520 "2022-05-30T18:53:42Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > We are given to believe that the shooter was in a ‘suite’ with two interconnected classrooms (rooms 111 and 112), that there was some sort of connecting ‘hallway’ (or maybe a simple door) between the rooms, that both rooms had windows to the outside, and that both rooms had doors to the inside of the school. Those doors were apparently locked (probably by the gunman). My understanding is that there was a bathroom between the two rooms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=27)