# Police response during mass shooting event {Not Gun Control, 2nd Amendment or Politics} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165 "2022-05-26T18:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2022, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/801 "2022-07-18T21:06:29Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > two of the first responders have iron sights on their weapons, so certainly some didn’t have optics. Which, given the hours of YouTube shooting competition I’ve seen, should have been much more than adequate. This was not a weak hand 2,000 yard head shot in a gusting cross-wind after all. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/802 "2022-07-19T07:45:38Z")
> [@gnarator](#): > > It’s on page 42-43 of the report: Yep, thanks, I saw that when I got a chance to read the report tonight. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > This was not a weak hand 2,000 yard head shot in a gusting cross-wind after all. No, but it was a teacher and not the shooter. As I said above, the public jumps all over police when the shoot the wrong person or don’t care about who is behind the target. This guy is being jumped on for doing exactly what we want officers to do. Finally read the full report. I suggest you read it yourself, it has a lot of detail, too much to comment on at one time. The following are the conclusions listed by the committee. Again, the report has a lot more detail and is an easy read. 1. Uvalde CISD and Robb Elementary a. Communications and lockdown alerts: i. Poor wi-fi connectivity in Robb Elementary likely delayed the lockdown alert through the Raptor application. ii. Once the alert was sent, not all teachers received it immediately for a variety of reasons including wi-fi coverage, whether the teacher used the Raptor phone application (as opposed to logging in through a web browser), and whether the teacher was carrying a phone at the time. iii. No one used the school intercom as another means to communicate the lockdown. iv. As a result, not all teachers received timely notice of the lockdown, including the teacher in Room 111. b. Effect of bailouts: i. The frequency of less-serious bailout-related alerts in Uvalde diluted the significance of alerts and dampened everyone’s readiness to act on alerts. ii. In response to the May 24, 2022, lockdown alert at Robb Elementary, the initial reaction of many administrators, teachers, and law enforcement responders was that it likely was a less-dangerous bailout. c. Doors and locks: i. Robb Elementary had recurring problems with maintaining its doors and locks. ii. In particular, the locking mechanism to Room 111 was widely known to be faulty, yet it was not repaired. 2. The Robb Elementary principal, her assistant responsible for entering maintenance work orders, the teacher in Room 111, other teachers in the fourth grade building, and even many fourth grade students widely knew of the problem with the lock to Room 111. 3. Nevertheless, no one placed a work order to repair the lock— not the principal, her secretary, the teacher to Room 111, or anyone else. iii. Robb Elementary had a culture of noncompliance with safety policies requiring doors to be kept locked, which turned out to be fatal. 4. Exterior doors. a. Teachers at Robb Elementary often used rocks to prop open exterior doors. b. The west door to the west building was supposed to be continuously locked. When the attacker approached on May 24, 2022, it was unlocked, and he was able to enter the building there. c. If the door had been locked as policy required, the attacker likely would have been slowed for some period of time as he either circumvented the lock or moved to another point of entry into the building. 5. Interior classroom doors. a. Teachers at Robb Elementary commonly left interior doors unlocked for convenience, and they also used magnets and other methods to circumvent door locks. b. The doors to Rooms 111 and 112 were required to be locked at all times, and in a lockdown, the teachers were supposed to check that they were locked. i. A teacher in Room 112 was seen locking her classroom door after the lockdown alert. ii. The door to Room 111 probably was not locked. The teacher in Room 111 does not recall hearing the lockdown alert. The door required special effort to lock it, and the teacher has no memory of having done so. The attacker apparently did not have to take any actions to overcome a locked door before entering the classrooms. c. If the door to Room 111 had been locked, the attacker likely would have been slowed for some time as he either circumvented the lock or took some other alternative course of action. 6. Information that was known or knowable about the attacker a. Home and family: i. The attacker had an unstable home life with no father figure and a mother struggling with a substance abuse disorder. ii. The attacker’s family moved often and lived in relative poverty. iii. The attacker developed sociopathic and violent tendencies, but he received no mental health assistance iv. Various members of the attacker’s family were aware during the time leading up to the attacker’s 18th birthday that he was estranged from his mother and that he had asked for help in buying guns through straw purchases that would have been illegal. Family members uniformly refused to buy guns for him. v. During the week between his 18th birthday and the events of May 24, 2022, the attacker expressed suicidal ideation to a cousin, who talked to him and did not believe he was an imminent suicide risk. vi. During the week between his 18th birthday and the events of May 24, 2022, the attacker’s grandparents and other family members became aware that the attacker had bought guns. The grandparents demanded that the guns be removed from their home. b. School: i. The attacker struggled academically throughout his time in school. ii. The school made no meaningful intervention with the attacker before he was involuntarily withdrawn for poor academic performance and excessive absences. iii. The attacker had few disciplinary issues at school, but he was suspended once for a fight. iv. Due to his excessive absences, there apparently was no information actually known to the school district that should have identified this attacker as a threat to any school campus. c. Law enforcement: There apparently was no information actually known to local Uvalde law enforcement that should have identified this attacker as a threat to any school campus before May 24, 2022. d. Friends and acquaintances: Some of attacker’s social media contacts received messages from the attacker related to guns, suggesting that he was going to do something they would hear about in the news, and even referring to attacking a school. e. Social media: i. Reports suggest that some social-media users may have reported the attacker’s threatening behavior to the relevant social media platforms. The social media platforms appear to have not done anything in response to restrict the attacker’s social media access or report his behavior to law enforcement authorities. ii. The services used by Uvalde CISD to monitor social media for threats did not provide any alert of threatening behavior by the attacker. f. Firearms and ammunition sellers: There was no legal impediment to the attacker buying two AR-15-style rifles, 60 magazines, and over 2,000 rounds of ammunition when he turned 18. The ATF was not required to notify the local sheriff of the multiple purchases. 7. Law enforcement response on May 24, 2022 a. There was no law enforcement officer on the Robb Elementary campus when the attacker came over the fence and toward the school. b. Citizens at the scene quickly alerted local law enforcement about a vehicle accident, a man with a gun, and shots fired near the Robb Elementary campus. c. As initially reported by Uvalde Police dispatch and as understood by most initial responders, the incident began off-campus and as one that would have been in the jurisdiction of the Uvalde Police Department. Uvalde Police officers were among the first, if not the first, law enforcement responders on the scene as a man firing a gun moved toward Robb Elementary School. d. As the situation developed and responders received more information, it became apparent that the threat moved on to the school campus and within the jurisdiction of the Uvalde CISD Police Department. e. Multiple law enforcement officers arrived at Robb Elementary within a few minutes of the attacker coming over the fence. f. A Uvalde Police Department officer saw a person dressed in black and thought it might have been the attacker. From a distance of over 100 yards, that officer requested permission to shoot. Subsequent analysis suggests that the person in black was a school coach, and the officer did not have an opportunity to stop the attacker by shooting him before he entered the west building. g. Robb Elementary School Coach Yvette Silva acted heroically and almost certainly saved lives by alerting the school to the attacker’s advance. Most fourth grade classes successfully locked down as a result of her quick response. h. After entering through the unlocked west door, the attacker had about three minutes in the west building before first responders arrived at the building, including approximately two and a half minutes during which the attacker is estimated to have fired over 100 rounds. i. The initial responders to the west building heard gunfire and encountered a hallway with a fog of drywall debris, bullet holes, and empty rifle casings. They converged on Rooms 111 and 112, which they identified as the location of the attacker. They acted appropriately by attempting to breach the classrooms and stop the attacker. The attacker immediately repelled them with a burst of rifle fire from inside the classrooms. j. The responders immediately began to assess options to breach the classroom, but they lost critical momentum by treating the scenario as a “barricaded subject” instead of with the greater urgency attached to an “active shooter” scenario. k. It actually was an “active shooter” scenario because the attacker was preventing critically injured victims from getting medical attention. i. An active shooter scenario differs from a barricaded-subject scenario in that law enforcement officers responding to an active shooter are trained to prioritize the safety of innocent victims over the safety of law enforcement responders. ii. At first, the first responders did not have “reliable evidence” about whether there were injured victims inside Rooms 111 and 112, although circumstantial evidence strongly suggested that possibility, including the fact that the attacker had fired many rounds inside classrooms at a time when students were in attendance. iii. The ALERRT training “reliable evidence” standard does not align with the “reasonable officer” standard applied by ALERRT in its preliminary and partial report. l. Uvalde CISD’s active shooter policy called for Uvalde CISD Police Chief Arredondo to be the incident commander in any active shooter response. i. Chief Arredondo was one of the first responders to arrive at the west building. ii. In the initial response to the incident, Chief Arredondo was actively engaged in the effort to “stop the killing” up to the point when the attacker was located in Rooms 111 and 112, and the attacker fired on responding officers. iii. By this time, there were dozens of officers on the scene, but Chief Arredondo did not assume his preassigned responsibility of incident command, which would have entailed informing other officers that he was in command and also leaving the building to exercise command, beginning with establishing an incident command post. iv. Instead, he remained in the hallway where he lacked reliable communication with other elements of law enforcement, and he was unable to effectively implement staging or command and control of the situation. m. Over the course of the next hour, hundreds of law enforcement officers arrived at the scene. i. The scene was chaotic, without any person obviously in charge or directing the law enforcement response. ii. To the extent any officers considered Chief Arredondo to be the overall incident commander, they also should have recognized that was inconsistent with him remaining inside the building. iii. There was an overall lackadaisical approach by law enforcement at the scene. For many, that was because they were given and relied upon inaccurate information. For others, they had enough information to know better. n. Despite obvious deficiencies in command and control at the scene which should have been recognized by other law enforcement responders, none approached Chief Arredondo or any of the officers around him or subordinate to him to affirmatively offer assistance with incident command. o. Chief Arredondo and the officers around him at the south end of the building were focused on gaining access to the classrooms (through use of a breaching tool, a key, or other means) and protective equipment for officers (through rifle-rated ballistic shields, flashbangs, etc.). p. Meanwhile, dozens of law enforcement officers were assembling in the hallway on the north side of the building, stacking up for an assault on the classrooms, and mostly waiting for further instructions pending the arrival of protective gear and breaching equipment. q. While 911 received communications from victims inside Rooms 111 and 112, Chief Arredondo did not learn about it because of his failure to establish a reliable method of receiving critical information from outside the building. r. Eventually, Chief Arredondo came to understand there probably were casualties inside Rooms 111 and 112. Even if he had received information of surviving injured victims in the classrooms, it is unclear that he would have done anything differently to act “more urgently.” s. U.S. Marshals provided a rifle-rated shield and it arrived around 12:20 p.m., approximately 30 minutes before the classroom was finally breached. Robb Cmte Rpt • 76 of 77 t. While officers acted on the assumption that the doors to Rooms 111 and 112 t. While officers acted on the assumption that the doors to Rooms 111 and 112 were locked, as they were designed to be, nobody tested that assumption. u. Room 111’s door probably was not effectively locked shut. v. Chief Arredondo did not actually exercise tactical incident command over the BORTAC team, nor did the BORTAC team seek instruction from Chief Arredondo. w. By the time the BORTAC team breached the classrooms, the tactical command inside the building had been de facto assumed by BORTAC. x. Acting on effectively the same information available to Chief Arredondo, including an assumption of injured victims in the room, the BORTAC commander on scene waited until arranging a rifle-rated shield and obtaining a working master key before attempting to breach the classrooms. y. The Committee has not received medical evidence that would inform a judgment about whether breaching the classroom sooner than the approximately 73 minutes that passed between the first responders’ initial arrival at the west building and their eventual breach of the classrooms could have been saved lives or mitigated injuries. i. As described above, it is likely that most of the deceased victims perished immediately during the attacker’s initial barrage of gunfire. ii. However, given the information known about victims who survived through the time of the breach and who later died on the way to the hospital, it is plausible that some victims could have survived if they had not had to wait 73 additional minutes for rescue. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/803 "2022-07-19T11:52:55Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Finally read the full report. I suggest you read it yourself, it has a lot of detail, too much to comment on at one time. Not to pick on you, but after reading the last few posts here I found myself wondering, “Why?” It is pretty clear that this shooter - and others like him - ought not have such ready access to such firepower. And it is pretty clear the cops ought to have gone in immediately. But there is little chance the first is going to be meaningfully changed anytime soon, and the second? I’m not sure how much quicker on the trigger I want cops to be (as a general matter). I’m often impressed at the desire of folk to pick apart minutiae in cases such as this. It seems to be a widely shared human nature. I ask this respectfully, why do you feel the need to do so? Is it to assign blame? To prevent similar situations? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/804 "2022-07-19T12:17:02Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m not sure how much quicker on the trigger I want cops to be (as a general matter). Sure, but once shots start being fired, then you definitely do want officers to be quick. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/805 "2022-07-19T12:43:10Z")
Agreed. So, it seems pretty clear what went wrong here, no? Whatever cop(s) was/were first on the scene, they shoulda gone in promptly. Pretty much what I as a private citizen have understood to be the basic approach since Columbine, yet these fuckwads don’t even try the door handle? And whoever was top cop on the scene oughta have made their command clear, no? Hell, if I’m head of ANY organization, and something takes place on my turf, oughtn’t I PRESUME I’m in charge until someone who is clearly my superior shows up and clearly assumes command? So much of the rest of the details seem almost irrelevant, and sorta smacks of violence voyeurism. And, kinda irrelevant, so long as we choose to live in a country where every disturbed teenager has ready access to powerful weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/806 "2022-07-19T12:50:05Z")
Yeah, all the stuff about how the teachers failed to take responsibility for ensuring their (checks notes) elementary school was secured as a fortress impregnable from attack strikes me as being totally demented, except for the pesky reality that everyone apparently now accepts that schools should be maintained as such. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/807 "2022-07-19T13:09:43Z")
Eh, some level of security is necessary even without the possibility of violent attackers, because little kids sometimes do things like wandering off on their own, and you definitely want to prevent that. This might mean, for instance, that most of the doors have an alarm that goes off if they’re opened outside of certain hours… which in turn means that those doors have to be kept closed. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/808 "2022-07-19T13:22:20Z")
I’m fond of saying that the US loves to privatize profit and socialize loss. Think about this one: the cost to the average taxpayer to ‘fortify’ – basically – every public school and public building … rather than start to reduce the availability of firearms. Classic redistribution of wealth … along with every other innumerable flavor of massively screwed up public policy that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/809 "2022-07-19T16:05:29Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Think about this one: the cost to the average taxpayer to ‘fortify’ – basically – every public school and public building … rather than start to reduce the availability of firearms. Within the last couple of months NPR’s “Planet Money” had a bit on the business of school security. Tons of people/businesses eager to make a buck off the $$$ the country is throwing at this “unsolvable problem.” Hey, maybe the Uvalde School Police SWAT Team could buy some new combat gear… ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/810 "2022-07-19T17:33:25Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I ask this respectfully, why do you feel the need to do so? For actual information, not speculation. There is a lot more to this than the two items you mention. This was a total clusterfuck from the word go. Everyone from the teachers at the school up to the highest ranking police officers, local state and federal, did not do their jobs. If you are not interested in what contributed to this, I suggest you are in the wrong thread. The thread title is self explanatory. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > So much of the rest of the details seem almost irrelevant, and sorta smacks of violence voyeurism. How is it not relevant that the teachers, with the approval of the administration, routinely bypassed the security features that were in place? They even told one off substitute teachers how to defeat the security. If they had simply locked the outside doors, odds are the shooter could have been confronted outside because the first officers arrived in under 4 minutes. > [@Cervaise](#): > > Yeah, all the stuff about how the teachers failed to take responsibility for ensuring their (checks notes) elementary school was secured as a fortress impregnable from attack strikes me as being totally demented, except for the pesky reality that everyone apparently now accepts that schools should be maintained as such. This is why you should read the report because what you wrote has no relation to reality. The only thing teachers had to do was lock all doors everyday, not just during an active shooter incident. Myself, I don’t think that is too much to ask of a teacher. The fact is they not only propped open outside doors with rocks, they actually put in the effort to obtain magnets that were powerful enough to defeat the magnetic self locking doors. The purposely defeated a simple security measure that could have stopped this. And they did it day after day. All this so they could run out to their car if they forgot something. Every single outside door in the building was unlocked. Locked outside doors was pretty common in elementary schools 45 years ago when I attended. I don’t know why it’s an impossible task for teachers now. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Think about this one: the cost to the average taxpayer to ‘fortify’ – basically – every public school and public building Except that it is not expensive to fortify schools. All that is really needed is locks that work and school staff that follows protocol. One of the things that happened in this case, besides teachers defeating locks, was the lack of working locks on some doors, including the classroom he entered. Instead of replacing all the locks in the school and having an adequate number of keys, plus master keys that fit every lock in the school available to those who may need them, the school used their grant money to buy bullet resistant white boards. Just how students were supposed to get behind these whiteboards is not clear. Rolling ones would be too small and I don’t know what they would do with ones affixed to walls. Maybe they were to prevent bullets going thru walls. Luckily for Texas, Dallas has learned valuable lessons from this shooting. [https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/18/us/dallas-school-district-requires-clear-backpacks/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/18/us/dallas-school-district-requires-clear-backpacks/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/811 "2022-07-19T17:39:52Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Except that it is not expensive to fortify schools. All that is really needed is locks that work and school staff that follows protocol. One of the things that happened in this case, besides teachers defeating locks, was the lack of working locks on some doors, including the classroom he entered. But the students still have to enter and exit the school at the beginning and end of each school day, and a large number of them will still ride (concentrated) on buses. Up-armored buses ? Ballistic backpacks for all ? Arm primary school kids ?? Bulletproof classroom (and bus) windows … even in hot climates with no money for a/c ?? It’s lethal Whack-a-Mole. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/812 "2022-07-19T17:53:08Z")
None of that has anything to do with making the actual schools secure. Thanks for giving the next nut job the idea to just shoot up school busses, tho. Teens these days have probably never seen the original _Dirty Harry_. I’m sure they would never have thought of it on their own, so at least we have you to blame when it happens. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/813 "2022-07-19T17:58:33Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > This is why you should read the report because what you wrote has no relation to reality. The only thing teachers had to do was lock all doors everyday, not just during an active shooter incident. Myself, I don’t think that is too much to ask of a teacher. The fact is they not only propped open outside doors with rocks, they actually put in the effort to obtain magnets that were powerful enough to defeat the magnetic self locking doors. The purposely defeated a simple security measure that could have stopped this. And they did it day after day. All this so they could run out to their car if they forgot something. Every single outside door in the building was unlocked. Locked outside doors was pretty common in elementary schools 45 years ago when I attended. I don’t know why it’s an impossible task for teachers now. Isn’t this thread about the _police response_, not that of the teachers? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/814 "2022-07-19T18:14:31Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Luckily for Texas, Dallas has learned valuable lessons from this shooting. Was that meant to be ironic? Because clear backpacks wouldn’t have done anything here: The shooter didn’t belong at this school at all. Clear backpacks might catch some other shooters, who bring in a handgun to shoot up their own school. If they don’t just do something trivial like wrapping it in their gym clothes before putting it in their bookbag. At least it’s less trouble than the more common measure of banning bookbags entirely, though. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/815 "2022-07-19T19:26:28Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Isn’t this thread about the _police response_, not that of the teachers? It’s been both since the beginning because the first news reports said a teacher propped the outside door open. I’m not sure you can separate the two because the police response was worked out with the schools. They worked out the entire plan together. Remember that the school had it’s own police force as being in charge in this situation, that’s why they got stuck with Chief Pete fucking things up. IIRC, second choice was the Uvalde City Chief, who also did nothing, not even relay updates on the shooters to anyone inside. Third was a school official. > [@Chronos](#): > > Was that meant to be ironic? More sarcastic since it even says in the article that other schools that tried this eventually abandoned the plan. They mention Stoneman-Douglas tried this after their school shooting. Not to mention their timing of the announcement. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I also think it’s pretty legit subject matter to talk about the idea of hardening public schools and buildings _in the context_ of what the goal in doing so would be, and whether or not it would likely be effective. Absolutely, that’s part of why I mentioned instead of insuring that all the doors had functioning locks, they spent money on ballistic whiteboards. I think bulletproof bus windows are a no-go from the start. Buses are way more likely to be in accidents where they need to be able to break windows to get children out of the bus. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > It’d be nice to be a few steps ahead every once in a while instead of being rather far behind. Right now, I would settle for them doing what they are supposed to do in the first place. If we can’t depend on people to do what they sign on to do and train for, there is no chance of getting ahead of this that I can see. It’s a nice thought, tho. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/816 "2022-07-19T19:27:11Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > None of that has anything to do with making the actual schools secure. Actually, some of it did. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Bulletproof classroom (and bus) windows … even in hot climates with no money for a/c ?? I also think it’s pretty legit subject matter to talk about the idea of hardening public schools and buildings _in the context_ of what the goal in doing so would be, and whether or not it would likely be effective. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > Thanks for giving the next nut job the idea to just shoot up school busses, tho. Teens these days have probably never seen the original _Dirty Harry_. I’m sure they would never have thought of it on their own, so at least we have you to blame when it happens. 🙂 I’m more concerned about whether or not the good guys are considering this kind of thing than I am about whether or not the bad guys are (ETA: because the bad guys are highly motivated and will seek whatever avenue is effective and accessible to them). It’d be nice to be a few steps ahead every once in a while instead of being rather far behind. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/817 "2022-07-19T19:46:25Z")
This just in- > **[How aggressive border control tactics in Texas contributed to inaction during...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/07/19/texas-border-control-tactics-uvalde-school-shooting/10093512002/)** > > The Uvalde report said the community was accustomed to security alerts. Experts say aggressive border control policies contributed to that. _Robb Elementary students were used to lockdowns. From February to May, the school in Uvalde, Texas, had been [secured or locked down 47 times](https://house.texas.gov/_media/pdf/committees/reports/87interim/Robb-Elementary-Investigative-Committee-Report.pdf)._ _When a lockdown alert came May 24 – the day an 18-year-old shooter [killed 19 students and two teachers](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/05/24/texas-school-district-locked-down-active-shooter/9910214002/) – many administrators, teachers and law enforcement responders initially assumed it was like the 47 other lockdowns,[according to a report](https://house.texas.gov/_media/pdf/committees/reports/87interim/Robb-Elementary-Investigative-Committee-Report.pdf) by the Texas House of Representatives outlining the most grievous failures during the shooting response._ _Lockdowns fostered a culture of complacency at the school, the report said. Almost all – 90% – of the security alerts earlier in the year came from “bailout” situations, when vehicles smuggling migrants lead authorities on high-speed chases that end when the vehicle crashes and the occupants scatter, the report said._ ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2022, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/818 "2022-07-20T07:29:34Z")
Little late with that. I mentioned that earlier and it’s in the committee conclusions I posted above. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2022, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/819 "2022-07-20T11:19:55Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Except that it is not expensive to fortify schools. All that is really needed is locks that work and school staff that follows protocol. One of the things that happened in this case, besides teachers defeating locks, was the lack of working locks on some doors, including the classroom he entered. Part of the problem is that schools are sometimes reluctant to provide teachers with exterior keys, because either they don’t trust them or its just more keys out there mean more get lost means more expensive rekeyings. Card entry systems, where every employee can have a card that works as a key, are far superior, but districts are reluctant to spend the money. I completely agree that external doors need to be locked, and there is really no excuse for it, but when only 10% of the adulta in the building are given keys, it is going to happen. Interior doors are a bigger problem. Part of the problem is dress code. Most teachers are women, and it’s difficult for women to find professional clothes with pockets. I mean, you can, but it means really limiting your choices and lots of women don’t. So there’s nowhere to carry keys. Years ago, lots of female teachers kept them on those phone-cord style bracelets, but those have fallen out of fashion because you have to take them off to type, and we type a lot now. So you find yourself in the hall without your keys all the time, which is a huge inconvenience, because you have to go to the office to borrow a key. My honest solution to this problem is to start wearing, um, black denim slacks, everyday and I get away with it, but that wouldn’t fly at some schools. The other issue with keeping internal doors locked is that it is insanely disruptive. People come and go out of classrooms endlessly. Having to stop instruction multiple times to open the door is maddening, and people knocking during tests or other quiet times is very distracting. I don’t know why single-action locks that anyone can lock woth the flip from the inside are unheard of in schools. I specuate above it is to avoid giving kids the chance to lock the teacher out, but that wpuld be like requiring a key on fire alarms to stop kids from pulling them. There are better ways to manage that problem. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2022, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/820 "2022-07-20T11:52:03Z")
47 times between February and May? That’s every other day or so. I don’t understand why they lock the school down whenever migrants scatter - there’s no mention of any particular risk caused by the migrants scattering, other that they might come on campus. ( It seems like the high-speed chases are more dangerous to the public than the migrants scattering but maybe that’s just me). There comes a point where procedures are self-defeating - if there is a door in the hallway outside my office that goes directly to where my car is parked, I’m going to prop the door open if the alternative is to walk around the to the front of the building. If fire alarm systems go off regularly when there is not a fire , people don’t react the way they should - the last time the alarms went off in my office, it was not a drill or a test , but I had to chase people out who were going back to their desks to grab coats and bags, or who decided to stop in the restroom on their way out. If I have to remember 27 different passwords with different rules , there is going to be a list somewhere. And if a building gets locked down every two or three days for what turns out to be “nothing” , people will stop responding to the lockdown the way they are supposed to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=42)