# Police response during mass shooting event {Not Gun Control, 2nd Amendment or Politics} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165 "2022-05-26T18:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2022, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/881 "2022-10-26T16:05:12Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > So show me that Texas allows agencies to take control over the people that have jurisdiction. You said this was covered by “regulations.” I asked, “Which regulations.” You have not answered that. You made a different claim about things being well known. I’m still waiting for you to answer my first question, which was asking you to back up your positive claim about regulations preventing literally any other law enforcement from taking charge. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2022, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/882 "2022-10-26T16:10:51Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > You said this was covered by “regulations.” Do I really have to explain this? It’s right in his title. He’s the chief of the municipal school district. That means his jurisdiction is the schools, although they seemed to sit around the office a lot. So show something that says someone else can seize control of an area he has jurisdiction over during an ongoing event. I think I’m done with this tangent unless you can come up with something that trumps jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2022, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/883 "2022-10-26T16:12:58Z")
In the case of this event, I don’t think it was as if Pete Arredondo claimed authority by virtue of his position. Rather, he did nothing to assert authority so that had anyone there taken the lead, I think everyone would have followed him or her. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2022, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/884 "2022-10-26T16:16:55Z")
I partly agree. We already know that many officers said on tape that they needed to get in there right away, and I think they would have given the right leader. But Arredondo did take charge by trying to negotiate with the shooter and not treating it as an active shooter. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2022, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/885 "2022-10-26T16:19:28Z")
I have not seen anything that says that their jurisdiction was _exclusive_ and it was not. There may be more overlapping jurisdiction, but, just as an example, there were Texas Rangers present. > [@](#): > > Out of the more than 100,000 sworn law enforcement officers in Texas, only 94 are Texas Rangers, but their jurisdiction is statewide. [https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/texas-rangers](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/texas-rangers) ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2022, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/886 "2022-10-26T16:38:43Z")
I am not going to speak specifically about Texas- but there is “jurisdiction” and “jurisdiction”. For example , in NYS any police officer has statewide jurisdiction in that they can arrest a person for a crime anywhere within the state. That doesn’t mean that the NYPD can take over if there is an incident in Westchester ( which is not part of NYPDs geographic jurisdiction) without being invited to. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/887 "2022-10-26T17:02:24Z")
You’re talking about a local force taking over for another local force though. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > I’m not sure anyone on site had authority to take charge over Arredondo. Regulations said he was in charge That claim is that the 5-member _school district police force_ didn’t have to cede control to, e.g., the county sheriff department, the state police, or Texas Rangers, all of which probably had jurisdiction over the area in which the school was located. And no evidence has been forthcoming that that claim is true. Further, my comment was that every single agency that arrived had an obligation, and likely specific training, to determine immediately who was the incident commander and to establish communication with that person or that person’s delegee. Arredondo has said he did not consider himself the incident commander. **Any** of the arriving agencies could have cleared that up with one conversation. Arredondo said he thought “someone outside” would have set up a command post, even though his own active shooter plan said he would be in charge. This is exactly why there is training on this very thing. First thing you do is find out who is in charge and how you’ll communicate with them. If there’s clearly a leadership vacuum, then anyone who has authority to do it on their own needs to step up, or if no one does, then ask who you think is in charge to agree to let you help. There are really well-established protocols where you would put different groups in charge of specific things, like communications, logistics, operations, etc. Over 300 law enforcement personnel were present, and there was a delay while someone looked for keys to a door that was not locked, for a classroom with a bunch of windows. That didn’t have to happen, and it is clearly (to me, with my training) the responsibility of every agency there that there was a complete leadership vacuum and lack of even the most basic steps to establish incident command. That’s everyone’s responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/888 "2022-10-26T19:00:57Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > That claim is that the 5-member _school district police force_ didn’t have to cede control to, e.g., the county sheriff department, the state police, or Texas Rangers, all of which probably had jurisdiction over the area in which the school was located. And no evidence has been forthcoming that that claim is true. Yes, because that’s how jurisdictions work. If you have something that says Texas works differently, just say so. Even you admit that the guy with jurisdiction in this case, Chief Pete, did not follow his own rules about school shooting protocol. That’s what I’ve been saying all along. He was in charge, no one else asked to be in charge, he didn’t ask anyone else to be in charge. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > the responsibility of every agency there that there was a complete leadership vacuum and lack of even the most basic steps to establish incident command. That’s everyone’s responsibility. I’ve already said all this before. There is plenty of blame to go around. Chief Pete is the tip of the arrow. He agreed that he would be in charge of an active shooter at a school, he was the first ranking officer to arrive, he decided it was a barricaded suspect instead of an active shooter. Everything flows from his mistakes. I simply don’t agree that he is in any way a scapegoat for others. Everything he did, he did wrong. > [@MikeF](#): > > This is correct. The default incident commander is the senior officer on scene for the political subdivision. I forgot to say thanks for chiming in. IIRC, you are a former LEO, no? Maybe federal? ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2022, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/889 "2022-10-26T19:38:33Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > I simply don’t agree that he is in any way a scapegoat for others. Everything he did, he did wrong. I never said he was a scapegoat. I agree he was supposed to be the initial incident commander. But it is in now way reasonable to say that everyone else was powerless to do anything because “regulations” dictated that he, and only he, could be in charge. I don’t think there’s a finite amount of blame. I think every law enforcement leader on scene did a terrible job, and people died as a result of them not following their training and protocols. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/890 "2022-10-26T20:58:31Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > I don’t think there’s a finite amount of blame. I think every law enforcement leader on scene did a terrible job, and people died as a result of them not following their training and protocols. I agree, the whole thing was a clusterfuck. It’s like no one wanted to take charge once they heard dead elementary kids. I actually expected some heads to roll after the report came out, but no joy. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2022, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/891 "2022-10-28T07:16:03Z")
Looks like McCraw may be getting closer to being forced to resign. For those that can’t read the Times, the Post article has most of the asking him to step down stuff, plus some conversations of officers knowing they need to go in but worrying they will be shot. > **[Uvalde Families Call for Resignation of Top Texas Police Official (Published...](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/27/us/uvalde-texas-state-police-hearing.html)** > > At an emotional hearing, relatives of children killed in the school shooting told Steven McCraw of the Department of Public Safety that he should step down. > Pressure has increased on Mr. McCraw and his department amid growing scrutiny over the actions of state police officers during the shooting — in which 19 children and two teachers were killed — and the lengthy period of time that passed before officers finally confronted and killed the gunman. > At least seven Department of Public Safety officers have been under investigation by its inspector general. One officer, Sgt. Juan Maldonado, was [served with termination papers](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/21/us/uvalde-police-response-dps.html) last week. Another, Ranger Chris Kindell, has been suspended, a department spokesman said. > **[Cops whine about possibly getting shot outside Uvalde during school massacre,...](https://nypost.com/2022/10/27/new-video-shows-texas-cops-fumbling-outside-uvalde-massacre/)** > > Police officers responding to the Uvalde massacre of 19 children and two teachers whine about their fears of getting shot in newly leaked bodycam footage from the day of the tragedy. > “Want to jump the f—–g gate or what?” asks one officer in the video’ > “What is the safest way to do this?" > "I’m not trying to get clapped out,” responded the second DPS trooper. > “Me neither,” said the first officer. > “I also don’t like standing right by the windows where we can get shot, bro,” add the second officer. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/892 "2022-11-02T02:24:53Z")
> **[“I’m so scared”: 911 recordings reveal fear and urgency of those trapped in...](https://www.texastribune.org/2022/11/01/uvalde-911-dispatch-recordings/)** > > Audio obtained by The Texas Tribune and ProPublica shows just how long police and dispatchers likely knew that children and teachers were in danger before taking action at Robb Elementary School. ---
**Author:** ![MagicEyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@MagicEyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MagicEyes)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/893 "2022-11-02T03:03:52Z")
Is there an emoji for furious and broken-hearted? There’s so much more going on here than cowardice and incompetence. Shimon Prokupecz is the only reporter I know of who’s still digging into this story— [https://twitter.com/shimonpro](https://twitter.com/shimonpro). Those children waited more than an hour for help and called 911 multiple times, and their families still aren’t getting answers about why and how this happened. 🤬 ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/894 "2022-11-02T06:17:02Z")
CNN has a more complete version of 10-year-old Khloie Torres call to 911. It’s heartbreaking to hear her asking when help would arrive when there were dozens of officers already at the school. > **[Video: Excerpts released of 10-year-old describing Uvalde slaughter to...](https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2022/11/02/uvalde-911-classroom-call-prokupecz-ac360-pkg-vpx.cnn)** > > 10-year-old Khloie Torres repeatedly called 911 for help while she was trapped with the Uvalde school shooter. CNN's Shimon Prokupecz reports on why it took 40 minutes for a strike team to enter the room after her pleas. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/895 "2022-11-02T22:29:18Z")
I can’t listen to that. I just can’t do it. I do wonder if any of those officers have heard these calls though and if so, how it makes them feel? I’d be so ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2022, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/896 "2022-11-03T06:58:16Z")
I really wish I hadn’t listened to it either. The written transcript was fine, although the ones I read were much shorter. That she could hear police in the hallway and was being told they were on their way, then having to wait for an hour is just… I don’t even know what to call it. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2022, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/897 "2022-11-03T13:03:01Z")
khloie knew what to do and handled herself and others in her classroom in an exemplary fashion. the numerous law enforsement around her… deplorable. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2022, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/898 "2022-11-03T16:07:18Z")
So, what you are saying is to give the elementary school students the guns, and send the police off to take a nap? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2022, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/899 "2022-11-03T17:08:45Z")
i’m saying that the police should be as well trained as a 10 year old girl. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/900 "2022-11-04T23:20:09Z")
I couldn’t listen to the transcript. The written transcription broke my heart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=46)