# Police response during mass shooting event {Not Gun Control, 2nd Amendment or Politics} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165 "2022-05-26T18:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/161 "2022-05-28T03:48:14Z")
I’m just going to say that we don’t know the whole situation, and may never. Perhaps the delay was because they wanted to make sure the shooter didn’t have, for instance, accomplices, or for that matter bombs? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/162 "2022-05-28T04:03:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ll put it to you this way. If those teachers had jumped out of the window, leaving the 20 children behind with the gunman, would you have been okay with their choice? No I wouldn’t be ok with it. I’m not ok with the police not protecting people. And I’m not ok with anybody being treated like a 2nd class citizen who has no right to self preservation. And I also feel that people who don’t show the kind of moral responsibility any decent citizen would to protect the lives of children should face nearly universal condemnation. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/163 "2022-05-28T04:11:31Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No I wouldn’t be ok with it. I’m not ok with the police not protecting people. And I’m not ok with anybody being treated like a 2nd class citizen who has no right to self preservation. Good thing that “cop” isn’t a status one is inherently born into and cannot change, then. Don’t want to put your life on the line? Don’t be a cop. Simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/164 "2022-05-28T04:11:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No I wouldn’t be ok with it. I’m not ok with the police not protecting people. And I’m not ok with anybody being treated like a 2nd class citizen who has no right to self preservation. And I also feel that people who don’t show the kind of moral responsibility any decent citizen would to protect the lives of children should face nearly universal condemnation. Fair enough. I think we’re pretty close to agreement. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/165 "2022-05-28T04:14:20Z")
If you haven’t read [the post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/143) by the Doper with SWAT team and police training experience, please do so now. There are a lot of misconceptions going around that are being discussed as facts. MikeF’s excellent, informative post clarifies a great deal. Seriously, read it. It’s important. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/166 "2022-05-28T04:16:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Is the life of a policeman worth so much less than yours that they should take a bullet to make you feel safer. deleted, too pissed off to answer. The thin yellow line has always been the reality, these cops just made it really clear. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/167 "2022-05-28T04:22:42Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If you think people actually sign contracts that obligate them to give up their lives you are mistaken. Where did I say they signed a contract? It is implicit in taking the job. An enlisted military contract doesn’t specifically say anything being put in harm’s way either but, “Nah, I’m not gonna help you assault that pillbox, sergeant. It looks too dangerous,” would not be received well. > [@TriPolar](#): > > However if that is what you think police officers should do then I can’t blame you for having that impression because it spread by the police themselves, even though it is not at all what police officers are required to do. So they lied, then. Take away their guns and their police powers, give them a Segway, and let them be the safe, mall cops they want to be, then. Drop by your local cop shop and try that line on them, and listen to what they have to say. > [@TriPolar](#): > > I’ll put it to you this way, if there is a situation where you might be shot and killed do you think a police officer should jump in and take a bullet meant for you because he signed up for it? I won’t presume what your answer will be. You can explain it to me. Read Grossman’s essay. He puts it far more elegantly than I can. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/168 "2022-05-28T06:53:12Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Let me pause here to say that getting through a locked classroom door without breaching tools or a key is very difficult. Yet the BORTAC team, who has as part of their job breaching stash houses, sat around for 30 minutes before trying to gain entry. Why did they need to wait for a key? > [@MikeF](#): > > It may turn out that all the victims were shot in the initial 100+ shot attack and there was no one left alive in the room. That may never be known. We already know there were victims still alive, both from the 911 call timeline and the reporting that there were survivors rescued. > [@MikeF](#): > > However, it is best to wait until the facts are in and avoid speculation. We simply don’t know enough at this point to reach any conclusions. Well, you reached quite a few conclusions in your post. C’mon, the police already said they ignored doctrine and training by not breaching the room. We were told every officer in the district was trained for this exact situation. Still, 19 of them sat around doing nothing. There is no reason for you to think up possibilities of why they didn’t breach, because they admit it was a mistake and they should have breached. > [@MikeF](#): > > Don’t just say, “Gone into the room right away”. Say how. Let the guys whose job includes breaching rooms go ahead and breach the room rather than have them also sit in the hall for 30 minutes? > [@MikeF](#): > > I predict that the teacher that left that door unsecured is going to suffer rather severe psychological problems and likely get death threats and all sorts of other public ridicule from the actual cowards sitting behind their desks and typing away. She shouldn’t get death threats, but she sure as hell deserves a big chunk of the blame. All the security in the world doesn’t help if she props open a door, and leaves it open even after she saw the shooter approaching. I hope she gets shit canned and charged with some kind of criminal negligence. Absent her need to get her phone from her car and being unwilling to be bothered to get buzzed back into the building, maybe no one at that school gets shot that day. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/169 "2022-05-28T06:55:09Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Yet the BORTAC team, who has as part of their job breaching stash houses, sat around for 30 minutes before trying to gain entry. Why did they need to wait for a key? Personally, I find it hard to believe that in this town that spends 40% of its budget on the cops and has its own SWAT team, that not one of these squad cars had a battering ram or a breaching shotgun in the trunk. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/170 "2022-05-28T07:11:38Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Personally, I find it hard to believe that in this town that spends 40% of its budget on the cops and has its own SWAT team, that not one of these squad cars had a battering ram or a breaching shotgun in the trunk. Yep, I think the SWAT team thing is a joke. There were 8 or 10 officers in that picture. For a town of 16000, that’s probably half or a third of the police force. Something tells me there was a certain lack of training there. Plus, if they were actually a local SWAT, where the hell were they for that hour? Group vacation? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/171 "2022-05-28T07:47:14Z")
I don’t agree with some of the assumptions of the OP. I don’t think it follows that if police had not been outside stopping parents then they would have entered the scene. They tried to enter the scene because no one was going in to help. Think of it like a fire. If I know a loved one is inside, and no one going to help, then I would want to go in (and hopefully I’d have the bravery to do so). But if I know several firefighters are doing all they can to get people out, then I’d probably not interfere, on the assumption that they will be more effective than me. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/172 "2022-05-28T12:21:23Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Yep, I think the SWAT team thing is a joke. There were 8 or 10 officers in that picture. For a town of 16000, that’s probably half or a third of the police force. I can see the advert: > [@](#): > > Join the Ulvade police department! > > Great bennies! > > You can cosplay at being a SWAT officer! Honking big guns provided by the people of Ulvade! > > Not a high risk job! If anything goes south, you just wait for federal Border Patrol cops to show up! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/173 "2022-05-28T12:36:42Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > There are plenty of people posting here about the failure of the cops. I’d like to know what you think they should have done. Don’t just say, “Gone into the room right away”. Say how. I’m more interested in the systemic failures. Why on earth wouldn’t the school district’s dedicated police force have a master key to all rooms? Even if they don’t, why not ask the principal or custodian for the master key? It’s not just people here posting about the failures of cops. It’s the cops themselves. While your post is really informative, given your expertise, it sounds like the people who are closer to the situation than you are seeing some dreadful failures. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/174 "2022-05-28T12:55:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m more interested in the systemic failures This. The MentourPilot approach. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/175 "2022-05-28T13:02:14Z")
While dealing with the propped open door is a slight deviation from the thread topic, I hope it may be forgiven as related to the “systemic failures” issue. Propped open doors happen _all the time_. One approach is to keep scolding, or even penalizing, staff who prop open doors. That does not seem effective. Instead, figure out why staff are doing this, and fix it. It may be something as simple as giving staff keys to the doors. It may mean installing keypads on doors. It may mean ID badges with a chip that open doors. Figure out what system leads to fewer propped-open doors, rather than cursing the name of the teacher than ran out to get her cellphone and propped the door open. (As an aside, I’m confused about the timeline on that. Wasn’t there shooting going on for 10 minutes outside before he entered? Did the teacher just not hear the gunfire?) ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/176 "2022-05-28T13:20:34Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I’d like to know what you think they should have done. Thanks for the informative insight. Based on what little remains of my military training, here is what I believe should have been done: The officers in the initial pursuit should have maintained contact by firing through the door. The officers who joined them should have been directed to go to the outside and fire through the windows. This needn’t be directed fire, just a lot of noise and harassment to distract the shooter and make him believe he was in a cross fire. Create an opportunity to breach the door or wall. Find a means to breach the door - shot gun, axe, crow bar, key. As officers arrived have them breach the door and windows of the adjoining room. The problem is, the shooter had total control of the incident from beginning to end. The situation did not conveniently fit the bureaucratic definitions of active shooter or barricade or hostage. It was not a debate over status. The children making 911 calls were taking action at enormous personal risk while 19 policemen, less than 20 feet away, were cowering in the hall. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/177 "2022-05-28T13:39:19Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The officers in the initial pursuit should have maintained contact by firing through the door. The officers who joined them should have been directed to go to the outside and fire through the windows. This needn’t be directed fire, just a lot of noise and harassment to distract the shooter and make him believe he was in a cross fire. Create an opportunity to breach the door or wall. Find a means to breach the door - shot gun, axe, crow bar, key. As officers arrived have them breach the door and windows of the adjoining room. I know either virtually nothing or literally nothing about this stuff, but ISTM that – unless they truly had reliably accurate eyes on the interiors (I think it was @Magiver who, elsewhere, talked about getting cameras in place immediately), they wouldn’t have had control over their field of fire or the damage that ricochets might do. Too much risk of law enforcement killing little kids. My uneducated sense was that getting eyes on the room might allow them to triangulate the murderer, and then breach from multiple points simultaneously. It’s also why I asked, above, if there _were_ other ingress/egress points and/or windows. I mean … **IF** a sniper could get a clear shot through a window with minimal risk of collateral damage … Or even use stun grenades – if appropriate in the presence of little kids – to distract him while entry is made. But how much of the required gear did the available LEOs actually have (with them) ? We’re told that one reason for the distressing delay is that they had called for, and were waiting for, things like body armor and ‘tactical gear.’ ---
**Author:** ![Anita\_Dayoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Anita\_Dayoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anita_Dayoff)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/178 "2022-05-28T14:15:45Z")
The ‘blue line flag’ is now officially disgraced. These colors don’t run (into a building into a building where children are are being shot) The blue line flag is a violation of the U.S. Flag code - §1. Flag; stripes and stars on The flag of the United States shall be thirteen horizontal stripes, alternate red and white; and the union of the flag shall be forty-eight stars, white in a blue field. [https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title4/chapter1&edition=prelim](https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title4/chapter1&edition=prelim) The ‘blue line’ is an insult to all who have served defending freedom, the flag and what it stands for. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/179 "2022-05-28T14:21:47Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > I know either virtually nothing or literally nothing about this stuff And to some extent that was true for the responding officers. They did not know their enemy or the environment, but that’s the job. At the moment of contact they have to decide whether they are playing at COPS or actually being COPS. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165/180 "2022-05-28T14:29:59Z")
Exactly! It happens all the time. Workmen come and go through a propped open door. Bus drivers prop it open to come in and use the bathroom before dismissal. The delivery drivers prop it open to go to and fro with their stuff. I read somewhere the teacher that propped it open because it was an awards day and it was for parents to come and go to see the achievement awards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-response-during-mass-shooting-event-not-gun-control-2nd-amendment-or-politics/965165.md?page=10)