# Police shooting of the mentally ill : is the typical way these encounters go by the book? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223 "2017-09-24T21:04:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/1 "2017-09-24T21:04:26Z")
I’ve read stories of this happening dozens of times. Every encounter goes about the same way, implying common training. [Here’s](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/09/17/knife-wielding-campus-pride-leader-killed-by-police-at-georgia-tech/) one of the more recent of such encounters. They killed a georgia tech senior who was suicidal. A mentally ill person is always armed with either nothing, or a knife. They don’t have a gun and are usually acting irrationally. Police stand a distance away and order the suspect to drop the weapon and surrender. The individual refuses. Maybe they just stand there, maybe they put their hand in a pocket, maybe they wander in the direction of the officers. Instead of deploying a taser, pepper spray, or retreating, the officers gun the suspect down. The internal investigation will basically always clear the officers and juries will not convict. The thing that outrages many people is that while it is true that it is possible to lunge forward extremely quickly and stab someone, there are usually multiple officers present, and the shooting happens before any such lunging. The actual risks to the officers generally appear quite low when these encounters are caught on video, and there are [numerous videos from other countries of these encounters being concluded peacefully.](https://www.facebook.com/ajplusenglish/videos/595601917247986/) The common element is usually disobedience of authority. Since authority is being disobeyed, the suspect is to be shot. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/2 "2017-09-24T21:40:40Z")
Disobedience is highly alarming to police officers in a conflict situation… But appearing to be dangerous, to them or to others, is the crisis point. If you’re disobedient, and then make a sudden move, you stand a really good chance of being shot dead. Certainly procedures need to be reviewed and revised to deal with the mentally ill, but there really is a limit to how much misbehavior can be tolerated. Suicide by cop is a little like suicide by freight train: there isn’t a whole hell of a lot that can be done to prevent it, if it’s what the guy really wants. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/3 "2017-09-24T21:43:59Z")
No it’s not typical. Police defuse massive numbers of situations each year. It’s primarily the ones where people end up dead or badly injured that are considered newsworthy and thus which people hear about. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/4 "2017-09-24T21:54:35Z")
If policies are changed such that fewer mentally ill people are shot, but more officers are injured or killed, would you consider that a net positive? I would not. If someone gets hurt, I would prefer it to be the criminal. > [@](#): > > The thing that outrages many people is that while it is true that it is possible to lunge forward extremely quickly and stab someone, there are usually multiple officers present, and the shooting happens before any such lunging. Yes, that’s kind of the idea - shoot the crazy person before he lunges, not after. > [@](#): > > The common element is usually disobedience of authority. Since authority is being disobeyed, the suspect is to be shot. No, because the person presents a threat of lethal force to the police and the public, and refuses to stop presenting such a threat - that’s why he is shot. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/5 "2017-09-24T21:56:18Z")
[Police Fatally Shoot Deaf Man Despite Yells Of ‘He Can’t Hear’](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/09/21/552527929/oklahoma-city-police-fatally-shoot-deaf-man-despite-yells-of-he-cant-hear-you) > [@](#): > > Police in Oklahoma City on Tuesday night fatally shot a deaf man who they say was advancing toward them with a metal pipe as witnesses yelled that the man was deaf and could not hear them… > > Neighbor Jolie Guebara told The Associated Press that Sanchez “always had a stick that he would walk around with, because there’s a lot of stray dogs.” … > > Sanchez had “no criminal history that I could locate,” Mathews said. The car involved in the hit-and-run was driven by Sanchez’s father and Magdiel Sanchez was not in the car at the time. The victim of the homicide was not mentally ill, but I feel it’s related because he had a disability ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/6 "2017-09-24T23:46:48Z")
I’m poking around for statistics re: police encounters with the mentally ill both here and in other countries. Not finding anything useful just yet. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/7 "2017-09-25T02:03:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If policies are changed such that fewer mentally ill people are shot, but more officers are injured or killed, would you consider that a net positive? I would not. If someone gets hurt, I would prefer it to be the criminal. > Yes, that’s kind of the idea - shoot the crazy person before he lunges, not after.No, because the person presents a threat of lethal force to the police and the public, and refuses to stop presenting such a threat - that’s why he is shot. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s disgusting. We’re not talking about mentally ill _criminals_. We’re talking about mentally ill people in general who may be dangerous, but only to themselves. You’re talking about them as if they deserve to be killed because of their illness. As someone who has autistic tendencies, I can imagine someone who is more affected by it to be unable to comprehend the danger that they face disobeying a police officer’s order given that I often misjudge dangers of things I say in certain company even if I know not to mess with the police. It’s unfortunate that such a large percentage of the population thinks like you: that if you aren’t like me, you should be shot. Shame on you. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/8 "2017-09-25T05:18:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > .No, because the person presents a threat of lethal force to the police and the public, and refuses to stop presenting such a threat - that’s why he is shot. Judge Dredd Manual, Chapter 02, Section ii: ‘On Encountering Non-Judges’. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/9 "2017-09-25T11:45:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If policies are changed such that fewer mentally ill people are shot, but more officers are injured or killed, would you consider that a net positive? I would not. If someone gets hurt, I would prefer it to be the criminal. Criminal, huh. Judge, jury, executioner; neat and tidy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/10 "2017-09-25T12:36:33Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > That’s disgusting. We’re not talking about mentally ill _criminals_. We’re talking about mentally ill people in general who may be dangerous, but only to themselves. That’s not actually true - we are talking about mentally ill people who attack the police. So they are dangerous to others as well. > [@](#): > > You’re talking about them as if they deserve to be killed because of their illness. Also not factual - I am talking about whether it is better to shoot someone who attacks the police vs. letting the police be attacked. > [@](#): > > It’s unfortunate that such a large percentage of the population thinks like you: that if you aren’t like me, you should be shot. > > Shame on you. I would hope that the population is like me in that they don’t attack the police with knives, but I find it difficult to be ashamed of that hope. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/11 "2017-09-25T17:00:11Z")
Maybe I’m missing something , **Shodan** , but I didn’t see where anyone was attacked in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/12 "2017-09-25T17:11:17Z")
Translucent Daydream: > [@](#): > > Video shows officers repeatedly telling Schultz to drop the weapon as the student advances. “Come on, man, let’s drop the knife,” an officer with his gun drawn says in the graphic video. But Schultz walks toward him. > > “Shoot me!” The officer keeps backing up, moving behind a parking barricade and imploring again: “Nobody wants to hurt you, man.” > > At least four officers had surrounded Schultz, according to WSB-TV. In the video, one of the officers called out to the student, who turned away from the barricade and began to move toward the new voice. > > “What are we doing here?” the officer asked. No reply. “Do not move!” “Drop it!” someone said finally, as Schultz takes three more steps toward an officer, followed by the report of a gunshot and many screams. Schultz died Sunday at an Atlanta hospital. Schultz kept advancing toward the officers. You can’t wait until the knife is actually driving toward you to react–police officers and no one else has that fast a reaction time that would avoid injury in that scenario (except of course in the movies). ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/13 "2017-09-25T18:35:30Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Schultz kept advancing toward the officers. You can’t wait until the knife is actually driving toward you to react–police officers and no one else has that fast a reaction time that would avoid injury in that scenario (except of course in the movies). There’s a video linked in the OP where 2 cops in England take a knife wielding suspect down without guns. It is possible to do it reasonably safely, and the English police force have a lower occupational death rate than American cops, at least overall. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/14 "2017-09-25T19:03:51Z")
The old-style training on the subject was that someone brandishing a knife near you was a threat to your life, and if they disobeyed an order to drop the knife, you were supposed to shoot them. The new-style training is that someone with a knife near you is a threat to your life, so you should not stand so close! You then decide what to do based on a whole array of circumstances, principally featuring whether the individual can be safely contained until the situation can be de-escalated. Often it will be. Sometimes it won’t be, and you’ll have to use force, but at least you’ll have given the person a chance to live. So it depends on which book you mean. As for cops getting killed, I don’t think it’s safe to assume that de-escalation training will create more risks to police and bystanders. If we’re just speculating, it’s also possible that de-escalation will result in less injury to police and bystanders because things get, you know, de-escalated. In general, it’s safer when no one gets shot. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/15 "2017-09-25T19:29:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > . . .Yes, that’s kind of the idea - shoot the crazy person before he lunges, not after. No, because the person presents a threat of lethal force to the police and the public, and refuses to stop presenting such a threat - that’s why he is shot. > > Regards, > Shodan Even the[police](https://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/) disagree with you > [@](#): > > For example, an article on the 21-Foot Rule in a highly respected LE magazine states in its opening sentence that “a suspect armed with an edged weapon and within twenty-one feet of a police officer presents a deadly threat.” The “common knowledge” that “deadly force against him is justified” has long been “accepted in police and court circles,” the article continues. > > Statements like that, Lewinski says, "have led officers to believe that no matter what position they’re in, even with their gun on target and their finger on the trigger, they are in extreme danger at 21 feet. They believe they don’t have a chance of surviving unless they preempt the suspect by shooting. > > "However widespread that contaminated interpretation may be, it is NOT accurate. A suspect with a knife within 21 feet of an officer is POTENTIALLY a deadly threat. He does warrant getting your gun out and ready. But he cannot be considered an actual threat justifying deadly force until he takes the first overt action in furtherance of intention–like starting to rush or lunge toward the officer with intent to do harm. Even then there may be factors besides distance that influence a force decision. > > “So long as a subject is stationary or moving around but not advancing or giving any indication he’s about to charge, it clearly is not legally justified to use lethal force against him. Officers who do shoot in those circumstances may find themselves subject to disciplinary action, civil suits or even criminal charges.” let me repeat the relevant part > [@](#): > > But he cannot be considered an actual threat justifying deadly force until he takes the first overt action in furtherance of intention–like starting to rush or lunge toward the officer with intent to do harm. mc ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/16 "2017-09-25T19:33:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If policies are changed such that fewer mentally ill people are shot, but more officers are injured or killed, would you consider that a net positive? I would not. If someone gets hurt, I would prefer it to be the criminal. > Regards, > Shodan Nobody is a criminal until they have been found guilty in a court of law. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/17 "2017-09-25T19:39:20Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > let me repeat the relevant part So, literally what he was doing? I’m as anti cop as they come but it seems ridiculous to me that people think crazy armed people who attack others should not be shot. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/18 "2017-09-25T19:44:54Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > So, literally what he was doing? I’m as anti cop as they come but it seems ridiculous to me that people think crazy armed people who attack others should not be shot. The video is in the OP. It blurs a second or two before the actual shooting, but the guy was just slowly walking toward the officer. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/19 "2017-09-25T19:51:19Z")
I asked the question in the pit thread and will ask again here. Don’t most police officers carry tasers? And why in the world wouldn’t police officers have shotguns that fire bean bag rounds in the trunks of the squad cars? ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223/20 "2017-09-25T19:52:37Z")
He was saying, “Shoot me!” It sounds to me like he was a danger to himself, not others. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-shooting-of-the-mentally-ill-is-the-typical-way-these-encounters-go-by-the-book/797223.md?page=2)