# Police want to search my home in murder investigation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107 "2009-11-10T23:26:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/301 "2009-11-13T23:20:46Z")
It seems that the locals there have a lot more confidence in the police than many others do. What I would find interesting is to do a crime report a year from now on that same area using those same borders and see if arrests spiked in the area and if so, for what reason. I think this is a HUGE waste of resources. Under no circumstances should the police be allowed into your home without a warrant, Here’s the bottom line; if you like, trust and are familiar with your local PD, do as you’re most comfortable, but unless you know them and unless you’re comfortable with their intrusion, it’s better left to the lawyers. It doesn’t matter if you’re a on a ‘suspect’ list. That’s a bullshit scare tactic that means nothing. “Oooh, I don’t wanna be on your list, sure come on in” Today is different than yesterday. No warrant, no cops. Period. In fact, I’d save a step and get one of [These](http://www.target.com/Come-Back-Warrant-Doormat/dp/B00020O572) ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/302 "2009-11-14T00:12:43Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Originally Posted by intention > > [QUOTE=intention] > You are conflating the law and morality, which is an extremely dangerous thing to do. > > When I was a kid, it was illegal for people of color to drink from certain drinking fountains, and people were caught and punished for it. > > However, that does not mean that they “deserved to be caught and punished.” It just means that that particular law was an immoral piece of shit. And that POS law was supported by the claims of idiots who said “Well, for them nigras to drink from that there fountain is agin’ the law, they were breakin’ the law already, they deserved to be punished.” > > Another version of this were the Prohibition laws against drinking alcohol. My mom was an alcoholic. She grew up during Prohibition. She drank during Prohibition. She drank after Prohibition. At all times, she needed help, counseling, rehab, tough love, understanding, and the like. > > But at no time did she “deserve to be caught and punished”. How would that have helped her addiction? Come down off of your high moral horse, “breaks the law” does not equal “deserves punishment”. In this case morals and law are equivalent in my eyes. That’s why I’m arguing. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. That’s not what you said before at all. You said it was a universal truth. You said, and I quote: [QUOTE=YogSosoth] If you are breaking a law already, then you deserve to be caught and punished [/QUOTE] I see nothing in there about “in this case”, you said “a law”, you’re just trying to wriggle out of it. And in this actual situation, since we were talking about someone getting busted for an unspecified crime if they let a cop come in, “in this case” is absolutely meaningless. We don’t know what crime they may be busted for, so how can you say that “morals and law are equivalent” in a case when we don’t know what they might be charged with? We haven’t a clue what law the poor bugger might get arrested for, so you are just making this up to get out of an untenable position. I’d award an 8.6 for the verbal gymnastics, though … ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/303 "2009-11-14T01:09:20Z")
[Here’s a story about why you don’t talk to the police.](http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6727002&page=1) **State Seeks Pardons for Defendants Wrongfully Convicted in 1985 Nebraska Murder Six People Wrongfully Convicted of Murder; Four Confessed to Crime They Didn’t Commit** > [@](#): > > In all, six people were convicted of Helen Wilson’s murder. Five of them pleaded guilty or no contest. Four gave detailed statements to the police implicating themselves and the others in the murder. > > The Nebraska Attorney General’s Office now says DNA evidence shows they were all innocent. Another man, Bruce Allen Smith, acting alone, raped and killed Wilson, the Attorney General says. > > At a hearing scheduled for this afternoon, the attorney general’s office plans to ask the state to pardon the Beatrice Six, as they have come to be known, bringing what lawyers have called one of most baffling cases in the state’s history one step closer to conclusion. > > The former Gage County district attorney, Dick Smith, declined to discuss the case. Investigators who worked on the case, however, continue to insist that the Beatrice Six were involved in the murder, though their DNA does not match the crime scene evidence. A lawyer who represented one of the six admits he still has his doubts that the truth about the Wilson murder has come out. > > “I have no doubt that we had the right people,” said Jerry DeWitt, who was Gage County Sheriff at the time of the investigation. “As far as the one who raped her, his DNA showed up. As far as the actual murder, I think they were all involved.” > > “A criminal can say anything he wants, whether it’s true or not,” DeWitt said. “Are you going to believe a cop of 43 years or a drug addict?” (DeWitt says when he arrested Gonzalez in McCormick’s she said, “I’ve been dreading this day for the last four years.”) After reading this story, I wouldn’t believe a thing Jerry DeWitt (or those other “investigators”) said. Hell, he’s poisoning the well right there, referring to Gonzalez as a drug addict. Lying, deceitful ass. Don’t talk to the police. Don’t let them in your home. Don’t let them in your vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/304 "2009-11-14T08:57:50Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > [QUOTE=Swallowed My Cellphone] > Can they seize my money printing machine that is outside the scope of their original warrant? No. If they care, probably one of them waits around while the other gets a new or updated warrant. [/QUOTE] Do you have a cite for that, to rebut the section of the _Criminal Code_ of Canada cited by **Spoons** in post 259? Or are you just making it up? > [@](#): > > **489.** (1) Every person who executes a warrant may seize, in addition to the things mentioned in the warrant, any thing that the person believes on reasonable grounds > > (a) has been obtained by the commission of an offence against this or any other Act of Parliament; > > (b) has been used in the commission of an offence against this or any other Act of Parliament; or > > (c) will afford evidence in respect of an offence against this or any other Act of Parliament. The general rule of the plain view doctrine is that if the police are lawfully on premises and see evidence of a different crime, they are empowered to seize that evidence as well. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/305 "2009-11-14T10:54:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Don’t talk to the police. Don’t let them in your home. Don’t let them in your vehicle. Wisdom. The police are professional liars. They will look you right in the face and lie and they won’t bat an eye and they won’t lose a moment’s sleep about it. Sometimes this is something they have to do and I understand that. There are a lot of cases where it’s probably necessary and in those cases I don’t hold it against them, it’s a hard job I’m sure, with lines that aren’t always as defined as we might like them to be. But the fact is that they _are_ proficient liars when they feel they need to be and I’m not capable of judging when they are telling me the truth and when they aren’t. I have no reason to trust them and I don’t, so I’m going to hold on to the rights I have as tight as I can. Get a warrant or get out. ---
**Author:** ![Obsidian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/51bf81/32.png) [@Obsidian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obsidian)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/306 "2009-11-14T11:33:34Z")
I’d be the most worried about something innocent that looks like it might be evidence. (Like the yellow shirt mentioned above). One of my roommates is a bartender. He pays his rent in cash, in a big wad of bills. Sometimes I have that sitting around. Could look like a drug thing. We have a fire-pit outside, with a big bucket of ash we haven’t dumped yet. Maybe the police suspect the body was burned. I’ve got a freezer full of deer meat, unlabeled and home-wrapped. Scary sharp implements that have cut deer. My husband sometimes rolls cigarettes, so we have papers. I was writing a book featuring a serial killer and have a lot of murder-related books. Not to mention innocent stuff that’s particularly suspicious to this crime. Sure, I’ll probably be vindicated, but there’ll be lawyer fees and hassles and who knows if/when I’ll get my stuff back. The cops can ruin your life amazingly easily, with no personal nefarious intention. It’s not worth the risk. (My husband and sister-in-law both work in law enforcement, and they both say not only no, but hell no) ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/307 "2009-11-14T11:40:37Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > They will look you right in the face and lie and they won’t bat an eye and they won’t lose a moment’s sleep about it. The ends justify the means. Take a look at some of the people in this thread for example. I’m quite sure they’d be quite happy shoveling Jews into ovens spouting the law was the law and you should follow it no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/308 "2009-11-14T14:38:54Z")
No. No warrant, no search. I’m shocked and appalled that 6,000 people would apparently willingly agree to participate in an obvious fishing expedition at the expense of their own privacy. Thanking the PTB I don’t live in Toronto. ---
**Author:** ![G.Pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@G.Pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.Pie)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/309 "2009-11-14T19:23:52Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > No warrant, no search. Same here. It’s a risk with no benefit. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/310 "2009-11-15T02:46:04Z")
Nobody has to take your rights away if you just freely give them away. What did we fight for if you just allow them to be trampled for convenience. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Bird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Little\_Bird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bird)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/311 "2009-11-15T03:32:43Z")
No one gets to search my house, my car, my purse, my person without a warrant. I’ll happily step out on the porch and tell them I’ve got nothing to say, and no 18 year olds in my house. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/312 "2009-11-15T04:12:06Z")
[Detroit Local News - Michigan News - Breaking News - detroitnews.com](http://detnews.com/article/20091112/METRO/911120388/Police-property-seizures-ensnare-even-the-innocent) In the Detroit area cops are confiscating autos and other personal property, apparently to enhance revenue. You can have the arrest dismissed but it still costs 1 thousand dollars to get your car back. I want nothing to do with law enforcement. If they saw a wad of money they could take it. All they have to do is declare it illegal and you have to expensively fight to get it back. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/313 "2009-11-15T05:05:30Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Thanking the PTB I don’t live in Toronto. Can any Torontonians shed any light on the ethnic makeup of the neighbourhood in question? Toronto is quite multicultural, with many residents who are recent arrivals from other lands. Is it possible that this neighbourhood is made up mostly of residents who come from places where the police are to be feared and obeyed, and who do not know what rights they have under the Canadian Charter? Can any Torontonian Dopers provide us with more info on this neighbourhood? ---
**Author:** ![padabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@padabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/padabe)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/314 "2009-11-15T05:46:51Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > [Update](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/11/13/mariam-makniashvilli.html)on the particular investigation that prompted this OP, along with this interesting bit: > > Astounding. > > I kind of wonder if the cops have been making intimidating statements to get that 100% cooperation? “All of your neighbours have let us in. You know, we could just come back with a warrant, is that really what you want?” > ETA: And it doesn’t even seem like any new information has surfaced. They are searching the neighbourhood’s garbage now in a desperate hope to find anything at all. Note the sentence after the quoted paragraph: > [@](#): > > Nealon said this week’s decision to send 60 investigators into the area bounded by Bathurst Street, Eglinton Avenue, Shalamar Boulevard and Chaplin Crescent has been met with 100 per cent co-operation from the public. Not one person has refused police entry to their home or property, he said. > > _The police investigators intend to knock on the doors of about 6,000 residents._ Emphasis added. This suggests that they are still in the process of knocking on doors. When you consider the number of people who aren’t home and the number of people who decline to answer their doorbell, you have to wonder what the 100% percent compliance statistic is worth. Based on the earlier bully tactics, I wouldn’t give them the benefit of doubt. **Sppons** raises a good question regarding the demographics of the neighborhood. Also, has the media played the story up in a big way? From one of the comments on the linked story: > [@](#): > > The cops have described the search area as a triangle bounded by Bathurst , Eglinton, and Chaplin. If this is correct this means that they are NOT searching anywhere SOUTH of Eglinton despite the fact that Forest Hill CI is right on Eglinton and this is where she was last seen. So the police are going to search an area North of where she was last seen but NOT directly South of where she was last seen. Why is this important? As anyone familiar with Toronto knows when you go South of Eglinton you are in PRIME FOREST HILL with multi-million dollar mansions, i.e. home to many of Toronto’s elite… _(shrug)_ ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/315 "2009-11-15T19:58:01Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > When it is voluntary, there is no violation. And that’s all the police are asking for here: voluntary cooperation. Correction : Coerced voluntary cooperation. > [@](#): > > You don’t have the right to be considered a good person and obstruct police investigations. Anyone obstructing a police investigation should be charged and arrested. It’s against the law to obstruct a police investigation. Clearly, refusing to cooperate with a warrantless search is NOT obstructing a police investigation. So your claim that it is falls flat. > [@](#): > > You have no right not to be suspected. How many times do I have to go over it? You have no right not to have an inaccurate suspicion cast on you. You have no right to be asked to help. You have no right to be thought of as guilty. You have no right to have the choice of acting as an obstruction and still be considered a good person. None of those things are rights. I have the right not to be threatened with retaliation for asserting my rights. It boggles the mind that you don’t understand this. ---
**Author:** ![G.Pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@G.Pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.Pie)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/316 "2009-11-15T21:11:10Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I have the right not to be threatened with retaliation for asserting my rights. Amen. If you didn’t, then there’d be no point in having the right to refuse an unreasonable search in the first place. I’m glad somebody above brought up the immigrant factor because that had been troubling me. I’d hate to think of what a bully cop might say to an immigrant in such circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/317 "2009-11-16T02:58:30Z")
Nope. Come back when you have a warrant. I want to know WHY I’m being searched. IF I have nothing to hide, why the hell are you asking to come in? Even if it’s only because I don’t want them making a mess of my house, scaring my dog and my cats. Asserting one’s rights is not an admission of guilt – it’s making sure I’m not being screwed. (Or maybe I just watch too much _Law & Order_) ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/318 "2009-11-16T07:51:26Z")
First of all this is a teen ager, not a missing child. There’s a bit of a difference, here. It’s a lot easier to hide a child. Plus teens are more apt to be involved with drugs or want to leave home. The article wasn’t clear as whether the search was announced THEN done, or whether it was done without warning. If they warn people they are coming, that is stupidity beyond belief. But then maybe that was the idea, to warn people then, throw a watch on the area hoping they see someone moving something like a body I don’t even like my landlord messing in my house, much less the cops. I’d probably let them in, but I have nothing to hide so if they asked me, and I said “no,” I’d expect that I would also be believed. You never know with cops. Last year a man was shot and killed right in front of my flat. The apartment building has about 40 flats in it. I thought the cops would at least come and knock on all the doors asking if anyone saw anything, but they didn’t. Two months later I saw on the news they were still looking for the killer, but no one ever came to my door and asked me. It made me wonder, “Gee if I killed this guy, I could’ve had a lot of time to dispose of the gun and evidence.” To this day I don’t know if they ever caught anyone. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/319 "2009-11-16T17:12:31Z")
In another development, the police are now planning on interviewing _[every student](http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/63353--police-to-interview-every-student-at-mariam-makhniashvili-s-school)_ at the missing girl’s school. She attended the school for a grand total of [4 days](http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091116/mariam_missing_091116/20091116/?hub=TorontoNewHome) before disappearing. And she barely spoke English, if at all. Really, what do they expect to find? I hope the students will have some sort of legal representation with them when the police interview them individually. I don’t believe most high school kids know their rights, and this just makes my skin crawl even more than their requesting permission from adults to search homes. Who is this girl? Why is there such an insane search for her when so many others (even other immigrant white girls) disappear so regularly with barely more than a police report drawn up about them? It just doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![G.Pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@G.Pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.Pie)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107/320 "2009-11-16T18:42:04Z")
I think the police are appropriating this method: > **[Have you seen my pig?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=539895)** > > A little pink stuffed pig. He’s on all fours, and his head is tilted to one side. His name is Beau. He’s from New Orleans. I haven’t seen him in about a week, and I’m afraid he’s gone for good. 🙁 What they’re doing seems about as effective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-want-to-search-my-home-in-murder-investigation/517107.md?page=17)