# Policy positions (or how the Democrats can win again) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [March 18, 2025, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794 "2025-03-18T22:13:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2025, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/81 "2025-04-22T23:08:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So far most Democrats still aren’t really trying to reach voters outside their base Who is the Democrats’ base, in your view? They lost 6m votes between 2020 and 2024, so either their messaging got a lot worse in 4 years, or something else is going on too. And by reach, you mean messaging from the party to voters, rather than talking to those voters to find out what they want and what their priorities are, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2025, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/82 "2025-04-22T23:25:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And like I said in the other thread, everything (like EVERYTHING) should be about corporations and billionaires. Everything should be tied to them and how they’re screwing everyone over for their own benefit. Every issue and every argument. I agree. The antidote to cultural populism is economic populism. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2025, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/83 "2025-04-22T23:44:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Replacing Trump with a Democratic fascist would not be an improvement. Wow. So there are leading Democrats who are no improvement over Trump? Who are they? If we are talking about Ruy Teixeira, whose article Demon Tree linked four hours ago, restarting the thread, residents of Greenland, Canada and the Canal Zone may have another take. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/84 "2025-04-23T05:18:29Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > So there are leading Democrats who are no improvement over Trump? Who are they? It wouldn’t _be_ a leading Democrat who took such positions, it would be some outsider (probably a Republican) presently not in the running for leadership because they hate and are hated by most Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/85 "2025-04-23T08:55:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It wouldn’t _be_ a leading Democrat who took such positions, it would be some outsider (probably a Republican) presently not in the running for leadership because they hate and are hated by most Democrats To be clear, you believe no leading Democrat could take any of these positions, and that anyone who did would necessarily be just as bad as Trump? 🤨 > [@](#): > > On culture, there must be a recognition that, while our country is not perfect, it is good (and reasonable) to be patriotic and proud of the role America has played in world history. Equality of opportunity should be held up as a fundamental American principle; equality of outcome is not. Yes, racial achievement gaps are a problem, and we should seek to close them, but not every example therein can be attributed to racism. Standards of high achievement—particularly at a moment of intense geopolitical competition—should be maintained for people of all races. And critically, language policing has gone too far; by and large, people should be able to express their views without fear of sanction by employer, school, institution or government. Good faith should be assumed, not bad faith. > > On economics—an issue that helped [sink](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/exit-poll-analysis-2024-election/story?id=115555726) the Democrats with working-class voters in 2024—white college-educated liberals should recognize that making climate change the party’s rallying cry is self-destructive, and solutions won’t come overnight. As we move toward a clean energy economy with an ‘all of the above’ strategy, energy must become and remain cheap, reliable, and abundant. That means fossil fuels, especially natural gas, will continue to be an important part of the mix. > > And the degrowth [fixation](https://www.thomsonreuters.com/en-us/posts/esg/pursuing-degrowth/) that the climate focus sometimes inspires is the worst idea on the Left since Communism. Ordinary voters want _abundance_: more stuff, more opportunity, cheaper prices, and nicer, more comfortable lives. The only way to provide this is with more growth, not less. > > To deliver that, we need to make it much easier to build things, from housing to transmission lines to nuclear reactors. That cannot happen without serious regulatory and permitting reform. That should be paired with a robust industrial policy that goes far beyond climate policy. We are in direct competition with nations like China, a competition we cannot win without building on cutting-edge scientific research in all fields. That would lend itself to a more bipartisan approach than Democrats’ recent fixation on climate. * * * > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > If we are talking about Ruy Teixeira, whose article Demon Tree linked four hours ago, restarting the thread, residents of Greenland, Canada and the Canal Zone may have another take. Ah, but they don’t have a vote… yet. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/86 "2025-04-23T09:08:03Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > To be clear, you believe no leading Democrat could take any of these positions, and that anyone who did would necessarily be just as bad as Trump? Probably worse since they’d be smarter. But all that rhetoric is about excusing bigotry and denying reality. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/87 "2025-04-23T10:58:39Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The antidote to cultural populism is economic populism. If this was true, there should be at least one House district, narrowly won by Trump in 2016, 2020, and/or 2024, where the successful Democratic House candidate was an economic populist who took all the Democratic base cultural positions. Instead, winners like Marie Gluesenkamp Perez went for some degree of economic populism and cultural centrism. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/88 "2025-04-23T11:37:07Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > > Ordinary voters want _abundance_: more stuff, more opportunity, cheaper prices, and nicer, more comfortable lives. The sad part being of course that it looks like the “ordinary voters” are going to get exactly the opposite of that. But alas it takes too long to explain that we can’t grow by “going back” and that the way to grow involves things that are unfamiliar to them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/89 "2025-04-23T13:08:24Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > The sad part being of course that it looks like the “ordinary voters” are going to get exactly the opposite of that. They may want “abundance”, but they want bigotry _more._ That’s always been so in America, what kills attempts at increasing general prosperity it the perception that _"those_ people" will _also_ benefit from it. And most Americans would rather live in oppression and poverty than risk somebody with the wrong skin tone, gender or religion doing better. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/90 "2025-04-23T13:27:10Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > The sad part being of course that it looks like the “ordinary voters” are going to get exactly the opposite of that. Yes, it’s very unfortunate for all of us (including non-Americans, because it’s affecting our economies too). The disadvantage for Democrats is that the party in favour of government action needs to be able to deliver, and over the last four years they had a great deal of difficulty doing that. I’ve heard plenty of Republican voters say they were very satisfied with Trump’s first presidency because he didn’t do much, and that’s just the way they like it. But that won’t work for D voters; you have to actually provide the abundance. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And most Americans would rather live in oppression and poverty than risk somebody with the wrong skin tone, gender or religion doing better. This is demonstrably untrue. Americans do not on the whole live in oppression and poverty: even the poorest US state is richer than the UK. And there are plenty of people with the wrong skin colour, gender or religion doing very well. People like that are queuing up at the border trying to get in, because the opportunities are so much better than at home. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/91 "2025-04-23T15:43:39Z")
You’re not wrong, but I wasn’t talking about what the Republicans do. The fact of the matter is that the Democrats have staked out a position where anyone who doesn’t agree with them is “a bigot”. Case in point: > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > These arguments always seem to boil down to “the Democrats need to pander to the bigots”, This stuff isn’t black and white, no more so than the Republican nonsense, and by presenting it as such, it makes anyone who’s not already decided make a pretty stark choice between them. And clearly some of this stuff is pretty repellent to a lot of people. I have a feeling that the vast majority of people find both parties distasteful in some degree, and it comes down to which one doesn’t taste _as bad_ to your particular political taste buds. But one thing everyone agrees on is being told you’re a bigot is a sure-fire way to push someone to the side that says they’re fine just the way they are. The Democrats need to meet these people _where they are_, as the therapeutic saying goes, not demand they come over here. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/92 "2025-04-23T15:51:56Z")
Cue in: “they ARE bigots who want to kill me!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/93 "2025-04-23T15:52:25Z")
> [@bump](#): > > This stuff isn’t black and white, no more so than the Republican nonsense, and by presenting it as such, it makes anyone who’s not already decided make a pretty stark choice between them. And clearly some of this stuff is pretty repellent to a lot of people. Because a lot of people _are_ bigots. Probably the majority of people, given the election of trump and the Republicans. And it _is_ black and white. People _voted for fascism_ because they _want_ tyranny, persecution, ignorance and lies. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/94 "2025-04-23T15:54:32Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Yes, racial achievement gaps are a problem, and we should seek to close them, but not every example therein can be attributed to racism. That’s a racist statement. What else could these achievement gaps possibly be due to? Scientifically, race is a meaningless concept. So if we see differences in achievements between various groups, it _must_ mean that one group is being discriminated against. There’s literally no other possibility. Racists like to talk about “cultural pathology” as a way of blaming Black people for their problems. But if Black people are more vulnerable to these “pathologies” than white people are, that must mean that Black people are more self-indulgent, or less intelligent, or in some way _inferior._ It’s euphemistic racism, but 100% racist nonetheless ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/95 "2025-04-23T15:58:00Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And clearly some of this stuff is pretty repellent to a lot of people. Isn’t there a word for people who find other people’s identities and behaviors “repellent”, even though those people’s actions don’t harm them in any way? Let’s see, I think it starts with “B”… Advocate pandering to bigots as a strategic necessity if you like, but there’s no need to argue that bigotry stops being bigotry simply because “a lot of people” are bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/96 "2025-04-23T16:00:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I still say it’s not issues. Trump didn’t win on issues, he won on being Trump, and not being Harris/Biden. I agree. But recent elections results indicate that tens of millions of American voters just don’t believe in the American ideals and institutions we grew up valuing. I guess when voters tell you what they want we should believe them. They don’t want a functioning government, a healthy economy, a sane foreign policy, or a decent people holding high office. Advocating for these things isn’t going to work because that’s not what the voters want. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/97 "2025-04-23T16:04:56Z")
Der Trihs, as is his wont, is taking the slippery slope argument to a ridiculous extreme, but he isn’t wrong. Sticking up for the rights of unpopular minorities will ALWAYS be a vote-losing proposition in the short term. If you’re seriously committed to liberalism, you need to constantly resist the temptation to pursue the short-term advantage at the expense of basic principles, or before long you won’t have any principles at all. I don’t think it’s _necessarily_ wrong to make arguments that Democrats ought to throw trans people, or immigrants or whatever, under the bus for the sake of saving the country from Trump. But those making such a case need to recognize that they are calling for a significant deviation from basic principles, and the bar for justifying such a move is appropriately set extremely high. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/98 "2025-04-23T16:11:37Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Sticking up for the rights of unpopular minorities will ALWAYS be a vote-losing proposition in the short term There’s no good evidence it’s a vote winner, either. One, you alienate the people who wanted you to stick up for the morally correct position, and they stay home. Two, if you compromise your values and offer yourself as two-thirds of a Republican, why would someone vote for you if they could vote for the three-thirds Republican running against you? Result is a net loss. The whole idea of throwing human beings to the wolves for your own personal gain is disgusting and craven. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/99 "2025-04-23T16:12:57Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > They don’t want a functioning government, a healthy economy, a sane foreign policy, or a decent people holding high office. Advocating for these things isn’t going to work because that’s not what the voters want. I’m guessing that by 2028, having seen what it’s like to not have those things, most voters will realize that they do, in fact, very much want them. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/100 "2025-04-23T16:14:35Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > That’s a racist statement. What else could these achievement gaps possibly be due to? Scientifically, race is a meaningless concept. So if we see differences in achievements between various groups, it _must_ mean that one group is being discriminated against. There’s literally no other possibility. From a Pew survey in 2020: > [@](#): > > **On average, Jews have higher levels of education and income than other Americans** > > - College degrees: 58% of Jews vs. 29% of U.S. adults > - Graduate degrees: 28% of Jews vs. 11% of U.S. adults > - Household income more than $100K: 54% of Jews vs. 19% of U.S. adults Discrimination can’t explain that, so we know there must be other possible explanations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794.md?page=6)