# Policy positions (or how the Democrats can win again) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [March 18, 2025, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794 "2025-03-18T22:13:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/101 "2025-04-23T16:28:20Z")
More generally WRT Yglesia’s manifesto: What’s with all the fearmongering about being in “intense geopolitical competition” with China? How about leading the way into an era of intense geopolitical cooperation? “Language policing has gone too far” is a euphemism for “it’s OK to be blatantly racist”. People already are “by and large, free to express their views without fear of sanction”. But it’s perfectly appropriate that the expression of certain morally abhorrent views should lead to serious consequences from “employer, school and institution”, though of course not directly from government. It’s incredible that someone can unironically claim that _fighting_ climate change is “self-destructive”! > “As we move toward a clean energy economy with an ‘all of the above’ strategy, energy must become and remain cheap, reliable, and abundant.” That’s absolutely Trump-level thinking. “The laws of physics won’t apply here, because it would be for my political advantage for them not to”. I do think he has a point about regulatory and permitting reform. Not meaning “get rid of all that environmental and public impact crap”, but streamlining the process and reducing the number of players with veto power. That’s both good policy and politically popular. OTOH, we also have to realize that between the climate crisis and population growth, the percentage of people living in high-density housing needs to rise. Reform should make it easier to build affordable high-rise apartment buildings, but also more difficult to put new suburbs on top of wetlands. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/102 "2025-04-23T16:34:25Z")
Jews, on average, have much higher income and educational status than other Americans, and are also disproportionately white. _We_ aren’t being discriminated against at the institutional level, but other groups are. White people in general have a higher income and education than the average American, which I consider to be a problem. I’m not sure what point you thought you were making by bringing this up. Obviously discriminating against certain groups will produce better outcomes for the favored groups. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/103 "2025-04-23T17:56:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If you want to enforce your personal ideas of morality on everyone, you have to live in an autocracy, not a democracy. It is like Gay rights, women’s rights, the Americans with Disabilities Act, etc. Never took place… Of course, it is interesting to notice that most experts are saying that we are becoming an autocracy, I guess the right-wing personal ideas could only be enforced in a democratic way nowadays… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/104 "2025-04-23T18:07:24Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > That’s a racist statement. What else could these achievement gaps possibly be due to? Scientifically, race is a meaningless concept. So if we see differences in achievements between various groups, it _must_ mean that one group is being discriminated against. There’s literally no other possibility. I’m not sure if you’re serious or joking. Are you saying that the NBA and NFL are deliberately discriminating against Asians and in favor of blacks, for instance, and that’s why the NBA and NFL are 70% black but 0.1% Asian? Black runners have won a disproportionately high number of sprints and marathons. Are the officials deliberately sabotaging runners of every other race? Ethnic-Indian kids have won a disproportionately high number of spelling bees. Are the spelling-bee officials sabotaging contestants of every other race? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/105 "2025-04-23T18:08:45Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > **On average, Jews have higher levels of education and income than other Americans** > > > > - College degrees: 58% of Jews vs. 29% of U.S. adults > > - Graduate degrees: 28% of Jews vs. 11% of U.S. adults > > - Household income more than $100K: 54% of Jews vs. 19% of U.S. adults > > Discrimination can’t explain that, so we know there must be other possible explanations. Uh, just so you are aware, Jews are not a different race. [https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/are-jews-a-race/#:~:text=But%20in%20modern%20times%2C%20antisemites,is%20no%20escape%20by%20conversion](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/are-jews-a-race/#:~:text=But%20in%20modern%20times%2C%20antisemites,is%20no%20escape%20by%20conversion). > The Antisemitic Assumption that Jews Are a Race > > Early forms of anti-Jewish animus tended to root themselves in opposition to Jews as a religion, seeing Jews as killers of Christ and deniers of the Christian claim to be God’s new chosen people. The liberation of Jerusalem during the Crusades and the forced conversions of the Inquisition were driven by this kind of thinking. Jews who accepted Christ and stopped practicing Judaism could be spared the sword. > > But in modern times, antisemites have more commonly viewed Jews as a distinct (and inferior) race, a designation from which there is no escape by conversion. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/106 "2025-04-23T18:13:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I guess the right-wing personal ideas could only be enforced in a democratic way nowadays… I meant to say that: I guess the right-wing personal ideas could NOT be enforced in a democratic way nowadays… ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/107 "2025-04-23T18:41:59Z")
OK. let me amend that to “if we see differences in _significant_ achievements…” The examples you give I would describe as insignificant, and would ascribe to mostly cultural factors. Obviously, a significant factor is that black American kids are more highly incentivized to pursue sports, to the extent that the usual paths to educational achievement are more difficult for them to access due to poverty and lack of resources. Mostly, though, black people just like basketball more than white people do, and that’s OK. Apparently people of Indian descent like spelling bees, and I hear they’re also better at cricket than white people. For some very specific, narrowly defined activities like foot-racing, there may be significant correlations between racial group and genetic ability; Asians, on average, are relatively short and thus less likely to become elite basketball players. But that’s not a big problem, because there are lots of other things they can do. If a society structured itself so that being good at basketball was a nearly indispensable requirement for social advancement, that would be a racist society. But that doesn’t mean basketball is inherently racist. The fact that some activities or subcultures are more popular among some ethnic/cultural groups than others isn’t discriminatory. Not everyone cares about being good at basketball. But people, across all cultures, generally _do_ care about having money, access to education, and good health. Therefore, if some groups are falling significantly behind others in these fundamental measures of well-being, it can’t be primarily due to cultural differences, since we can safely assume that everyone is equally motivated to do well. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/108 "2025-04-23T18:45:48Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > But people, across all cultures, generally _do_ care about having money, access to education, and good health. Therefore, if some groups are falling significantly behind others in these fundamental measures of well-being, it can’t be primarily due to cultural differences, **since we can safely assume that everyone is equally motivated to do well.** As a former teacher, this is where I would have to disagree. Some people are indeed not motivated to do well. Whether it’s apathy, a sense of despair and hopelessness, a culture that doesn’t value academics, parents who don’t think academics are important, or whatnot, some students indeed aren’t motivated. They don’t care about getting good grades or test scores, or don’t see the value of such, or may even get mocked by some peers in their same culture for studying well. I’ve seen black Americans show apathy while black Africans (immigrants) showed diligence and motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/109 "2025-04-23T18:49:21Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Black runners have won a disproportionately high number of sprints and marathons. Are the officials deliberately sabotaging runners of every other race? Also, you’re missing the point if you think racial discrimination can only happen when people “deliberately sabotage” the chances of disadvantaged groups. For example, black Americans have, on average, much less wealth and education than white Americans. This is _structural_ racism; overt racial discrimination may be rare now, but today’s Black people are still suffering the effects of centuries of overt racism perpetrated against their ancestors. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/110 "2025-04-23T19:01:25Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Jews, on average, have much higher income and educational status than other Americans, and are also disproportionately white. _We_ aren’t being discriminated against at the institutional level, but other groups are. > > White people in general have a higher income and education than the average American, which I consider to be a problem. I’m not sure what point you thought you were making by bringing this up. Obviously discriminating against certain groups will produce better outcomes for the favored groups. It’s a difference in achievements between groups, and you say yourself that it isn’t due to discrimination. Therefore, discrimination is _not_ the only possible explanation for such gaps. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/111 "2025-04-23T19:02:27Z")
I think it’s that “sense of despair and hopelessness” that’s important here. I’m not sure what kind of socio-economic strata you were teaching in, but in an underserved ghetto situation where almost nobody goes to college and where the jobs that are available generally don’t require much education at all, there’s no incentive to value education. Ta-Nehisi Coates has discussed this dynamic in the perpetration of ghettoes; it’s not that it’s _impossible_ for ghetto kids to achieve upward mobility, if they’re unusually smart, motivated, and lucky. But when they do, they understandably get the hell out of the ghetto, leaving the kids there with no adult role models other than criminals and minimum wage earners. Sure, people who have been forced into poverty may develop counterproductive ways of coping with that, which actually do further harm to them. But the ultimate cause of the problem is still that someone forced them into poverty. So I could rephrase to say that everyone _would_ be equally motivated, if some people weren’t placed in demotivating environments. (Of course, I don’t literally mean that _everyone_ would be motivated, just that all racial groups would have the same proportion of lazy people). ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/112 "2025-04-23T19:04:16Z")
No, I absolutely said that it IS due to discrimination. Not sure how you misunderstood that. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/113 "2025-04-23T19:08:58Z")
And to the extent that “cultural pathology” may be a real problem, it needs to be solved by people in that community addressing it. Cultural mores can’t be changed by acts of legislation. In the realm of public policy, which is allegedly what we’re talking about, it’s pretty much invariably a victim-blaming excuse for not addressing real inequities. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/114 "2025-04-23T19:11:11Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > No, I absolutely said that it IS due to discrimination. Not sure how you misunderstood that. You said: > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > _We_ aren’t being discriminated against at the institutional level, but other groups are. And anyway, discrimination could hardly explain how a minority is doing _better_ than average. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > But people, across all cultures, generally _do_ care about having money, access to education, and good health. Therefore, if some groups are falling significantly behind others in these fundamental measures of well-being, it can’t be primarily due to cultural differences, since we can safely assume that everyone is equally motivated to do well. They don’t necessarily care equally. For example, it’s commonly claimed there is a pattern whereby immigrants to America work very hard at manual jobs, and push their children to excel academically and go into a lucrative profession such as law or medicine. Then when those children have kids in turn, they are already financially secure and more relaxed about earning potential, so encourage their kids to pursue their interests, rather than a high income. Also, people do things that are bad for their health all the time: smoke, drink excessively, eat an unhealthy diet. There’s no reason to assume every culture is equally prone to the same vices - I doubt as many Muslims are getting cirrhosis, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/115 "2025-04-23T19:15:26Z")
For purposes of structural racism, American Jews are basically white people. So our superior performance is due to non-white groups being disadvantaged, not to any inherent superiority on our part. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/116 "2025-04-23T19:16:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m not sure if you’re serious or joking. Are you saying that the NBA and NFL are deliberately discriminating against Asians and in favor of blacks, for instance, and that’s why the NBA and NFL are 70% black but 0.1% Asian? > > Black runners have won a disproportionately high number of sprints and marathons. Are the officials deliberately sabotaging runners of every other race? No; it’s because basketball and football are poor people sports that can be played without much in the way of facilities. So if black people want to play sports, those are the sort they end up playing. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/117 "2025-04-23T19:18:33Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > They don’t necessarily care equally. For example, it’s commonly claimed there is a pattern whereby immigrants to America work very hard at manual jobs, and push their children to excel academically and go into a lucrative profession such as law or medicine. Then when those children have kids in turn, they are already financially secure and more relaxed about earning potential, so encourage their kids to pursue their interests, rather than a high income. That’s proving my point. When people are having trouble meeting their basic needs, they’re motivated to work hard. Once those basic needs are met, they move on to the next level of Maslow’s pyramid. Their kids aren’t less interested in having adequate food and shelter than they were, but they’re in a more privileged social position, so they don’t have to work super hard to get their basic needs met. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2025, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/118 "2025-04-24T00:21:22Z")
[YouGov poll out this afternoon](https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/52060-trump-approval-falls-kilmar-abrego-garcia-immigration-first-100-days-term-robert-f-kennedy-jr-april-19-22-2025-economist-yougov-poll): > [@](#): > > 50% of Americans say Trump should bring Abrego Garcia back to the U.S., and 28% say he shouldn’t Abrego Garcia at +22. That’s a lot. I’m pleasantly surprised. I guess the lesson is that there is more sympathy for individual migrants than migrants in general – especially if children are impacted. Every few weeks, Democratic politicians should find another sympathetic face to focus on. I fear there will be a lot to pick from. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/119 "2025-04-25T19:56:39Z")
I haven’t read the thread (, but hope to soon). I thought this article – a very quick read – can provide some fodder for the conversation from the other direction – ie, why young men are already losing their faith in Trump: > **[Young Men Are Already Souring on Trump](https://www.thecut.com/article/trump-approval-rating-falls-among-young-men-poll-shows.html)** > > A Harvard Youth Poll shows some troubling signs for the president. [The underlying poll that’s at the heart of this article is [**here**](https://iop.harvard.edu/youth-poll/latest-poll). Also interesting, also a quick read.] What I think the Democrats _can’t_ afford is to let young men and ‘non-college white males’ drift back into the shadows, all cynical, disenfranchised, and totally put off on politics – _both_ parties. Better than voting for the next MAGA iteration, for sure, but not as good as finding their language, _speaking_ their language, and crafting policy positions that resonate. I was watching a Netflix cooking show last eve. One of the judges headed over to the bus tubs (where dirty dishes accumulate) to see who was leaving what on their plate – a likely sign of what they _didn’t_ enjoy. Understanding why people shifted right, why the traditionally apolitical came out for Trump, and who’s disappointed now, and why … can’t hurt. It can only help. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2025, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794/120 "2025-05-15T01:30:21Z")
The Trump airplane scandal gives me an idea. The Democratic candidate should pledge to cancel the new Air Force One boondoggle project and fly on a standard Air Force transport plane. The Marine One helicopter should also be standard military issue. I know this doesn’t really save big money. But it is a sign of frugality. Will some old fogey General go on TV and criticize this as irresponsible? Sure. That may be what it takes to gain low-information voter attention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/policy-positions-or-how-the-democrats-can-win-again/1015794.md?page=7)