# Polio vaccine as origin of HIV **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420 "2013-12-04T00:29:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/1 "2013-12-04T00:29:58Z")
I saw a really interesting documentary the other day that described a theory which posits that polio vaccination trials which were being conducted in Africa may have been the link that transmitted SIV (the simian predecessor to HIV) to humans. If you look at the first documented cases of HIV in Africa, they are startlingly close to the area where one particular doctor was giving out over a million experimental polio vaccines to local people. And his trials were occurring literally just a few years before these cases of HIV popped up. And, apparently, chimpanzee tissue is the preferred medium to use for the creation of human vaccines, since our genetic structures are so similar. HIV was transmitted to humans from the SIV virus in chimpanzees. As coincidences go, this one is pushing credibility in my opinion. It also explains why humans never contracted HIV previous to the 1950s, given that we have been living alongside chimps (and presumably eating them) for millenia. The scientific community has been quick to quell this theory, claiming that chimpanzee tissue was never used in those vaccine trials. As I see it, they have a vested interest in trying to destroy this theory, since it basically posits that scientific endeavor may have given humanity the worst disease it’s ever come across. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/2 "2013-12-04T00:47:22Z")
_Really_ old news and debunked. > **[Debunked: The Polio Vaccine and HIV Link](https://historyofvaccines.org/vaccines-101/misconceptions-about-vaccines/debunked-polio-vaccine-and-hiv-link/)** > > In the 1990s, journalist Edward Hooper wrote a book claiming that an oral polio vaccine had been the source of the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Evidence does not support his conjecture. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/3 "2013-12-04T00:49:02Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The scientific community has been quick to quell this theory, claiming that chimpanzee tissue was never used in those vaccine trials. As I see it, they have a vested interest in trying to destroy this theory, since it basically posits that scientific endeavor may have given humanity the worst disease it’s ever come across. And the antivaxxers don’t? Not even when the entire movement is founded on fraud intended to enrich a corrupt scientist? ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/4 "2013-12-04T00:52:00Z")
AIDS and other animal-origin diseases do not work that way. RadioLab gives a pretty clear explanation in this [podcast](http://www.radiolab.org/story/169885-aids/), or a denser explanation can be found in [The Viral Storm](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805091947/radiolabbooks-20/). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/5 "2013-12-04T02:11:22Z")
AIDS isn’t the worst disease that has afflicted humanity, even if we limit the choices to pathogens. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/6 "2013-12-04T02:15:35Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I saw a really interesting documentary the other day that described a theory which posits that polio vaccination trials which were being conducted in Africa may have been the link that transmitted SIV (the simian predecessor to HIV) to humans. Yeah… Here’s a pro tip. If any “documentary” has anything negative to say about vaccines, and it isn’t popular in the mainstream, it’s probably bullshit. Vaccines have been the target of bullshit smear campaign after bullshit smear campaign by dishonest, antisocial idiots like Andrew Wakefield and the whole crew at Age of Autism (who, in a just world, would all get polio, measles, rubella, diptheria, and pertussis, in that order). I’m sorry, I have _no patience_ for crap like this. [The HIV-vaccine link is a zombie idea that just keeps coming back regardless of how often it is completely dissected and proven wrong](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/11/a-zombie-meme-rises-from-the-grave-maurice-hilleman-the-polio-vaccine-sv40-and-cancer/). Why? Because the people in charge of the anti-vaccine movement are, by and large, _dishonest and uninterested in evidence_. I don’t mean any of this to be mean towards you - you almost certainly just stumbled across this and found it compelling (as many might), but I have a zero-tolerance policy for anti-vaccination crap. Why? Because vaccines are quite possibly the single most indisputably beneficial societal advancement in the history of mankind, and their true potential is being held back by braindead celebrities like Rob Schneider and lying frauds like Andrew Wakefield. Keep in mind, none of my vitriol here is directed towards you. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt. My hatred goes out to known fraudsters - those who are demonstrably wrong and yet continue to put people’s lives at risk with dangerous bullshit misinformation. People like those behind Age of Autism, the Thinking Mom’s Revolution, NVIC, and assorted others. Those guys need to go die in a fire. You’re fine. Just… listen, learn, and try to avoid falling for their crap. ☹ > [@](#): > > The scientific community has been quick to quell this theory, claiming that chimpanzee tissue was never used in those vaccine trials. As I see it, they have a vested interest in trying to destroy this theory, since it basically posits that scientific endeavor may have given humanity the worst disease it’s ever come across. Actually, they’ve been quick to quell the theory out of an entirely rational fear that it will lead to fewer people using incredibly safe drugs to effectively prevent disease from even occurring in the first place. Given that Measles is already making a comeback in various parts of the world where this crap is caught on, I’d call that a very noble effort. There is absolutely no link between polio vaccines and HIV. All evidence you provided is either debunked or can be chalked up as complete coincidence, and extensive study has shown that any such concerns are utterly without merit. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/7 "2013-12-04T02:18:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > AIDS isn’t the worst disease that has afflicted humanity, even if we limit the choices to pathogens. Alex, I’ll take the Ebola virus for a gruesome death. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/8 "2013-12-04T02:20:31Z")
Bubonic Plague deserves mention as well. And Smallpox. Which no longer exists. Why? _Vaccines_. We could do this to Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Pertussis, Polio, Diptheria, and countless others. It’s not easy, but it’s _possible_. Just a shame Wakefield, McCarthy and co. set us back 50 fucking years. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/9 "2013-12-04T02:21:50Z")
> [@Robb](#): > > Alex, I’ll take the Ebola virus for a gruesome death. If you’re referring to Alex DeLarge, he’d give it to you. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/10 "2013-12-04T02:32:26Z")
I’ve always feared King Cholera, myself. Another natural disaster? I wince because it’s usually followed by Cholera, Typhus, Typhoid, and a host of other things Mother Nature has designed to kill us. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/11 "2013-12-04T02:33:37Z")
Heck, we’re not even a century past the Spanish Flu - killed more people in three years than AIDS has in three decades. Anyway, the alternative version of the OP’s suggestion I heard a while back was that HIV was spread in part because of the reuse of syringes during large-scale immunization efforts in Africa, i.e. unsanitary practices rather than any specific problem with one or more vaccines. This was told to me by a friend of mine who was an Assistant Chemistry Professor at McGill circa 1993, but he might have been just repeating a hypothesis he’d heard somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/12 "2013-12-04T02:36:28Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Just a shame Wakefield, McCarthy and co. set us back 50 fucking years. :mad: What makes it worse is he didn’t even believe it. He was trying to discredit the vaccine since he had patented a competing vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/13 "2013-12-04T02:40:14Z")
Malaria kills more people each year than C-SPAN bores to death. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/14 "2013-12-04T03:06:54Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > What makes it worse is he didn’t even believe it. He was trying to discredit the vaccine since he had patented a competing vaccine. It started out with the attempt to patent a replacement measles vaccine (along with the undeclared financial backing of the lawyer’s consortium put together by parents who were looking for a reason to sue pharmaceutical companies). Now, since he’s been discredited and struck off the GMC list, the only way he can earn a living is to continue to be bankrolled by the anti-science vaccine denialist crowd. It’s always been about the money for him. That, and the notoriety/fame. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/15 "2013-12-04T04:29:19Z")
To be fair, my OP said nothing about whether vaccines are good or not, or suggested that I agree with the anti-vaccine conspiratorial crowd. I worry that a mere theory that seems to contain a few logical connections is so vehemently shot down and a load of fringe baggage is granted to the messenger. I hope you realize you seem as fundamentalist as the conspiracy kooks, by not even engaging the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/16 "2013-12-04T04:32:09Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > To be fair, my OP said nothing about whether vaccines are good or not, or suggested that I agree with the anti-vaccine conspiratorial crowd. > > I worry that a mere theory that seems to contain a few logical connections is so vehemently shot down and a load of fringe baggage is granted to the messenger. I hope you realize you seem as fundamentalist as the conspiracy kooks, by not even engaging the discussion. What part of > [@samclem](#): > > Really old news and debunked. > > [Debunked: The Polio Vaccine and HIV Link](http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/debunked-polio-vaccine-and-hiv-link) Do you not understand? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/17 "2013-12-04T04:40:51Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > _Really_ old news and debunked. > > [Debunked: The Polio Vaccine and HIV Link](http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/debunked-polio-vaccine-and-hiv-link) A site dedicated to how great vaccines are is far from the material I require for a proper debunking. I will, however, take it into account. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/18 "2013-12-04T04:48:22Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I hope you realize you seem as fundamentalist as the conspiracy kooks, by not even engaging the discussion. Ah, the old “you refuse to even look at this” woo defense. How often do we have to look at each woo thing? There have been _hundreds_ of published studies on this stuff, cites for several of which have been presented here. That’s not enough? How many more would satisfy you? Science examines a question, and when it finds an answer _it moves on._ Having to go back and re-examine every question every time some anti-science idiot decides their feelings are more important than evidence would prevent us from ever getting anything else done. This theory is thoroughly discredited. There is mounds of evidence, and a conclusion has been reached. The fact that morons want to ignore said evidence and claim that a conclusion hasn’t been reached doesn’t change that. It’s done. If deniers want us to revisit it, they’ll need to provide evidence that outweight what’s out there now–not just tell us who live in the rational world that we’re not open-minded enough. Let _them_ waste their time rehashing dead horses. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/19 "2013-12-04T04:51:52Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > A site dedicated to how great vaccines are is far from the material I require for a proper debunking. I will, however, take it into account. What is your site requirement for a proper debunking? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/20 "2013-12-04T04:54:39Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > A site dedicated to how great vaccines are is far from the material I require for a proper debunking. I will, however, take it into account. The cite is from the College of Physicians of Philadelphia. It is filled with thousands of references to studies that are not in dispute. What sort of site or cite would you prefer for this alleged proper debunking you supposedly seek? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420.md?page=2)