# Polio vaccine as origin of HIV **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420 "2013-12-04T00:29:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/21 "2013-12-04T05:01:44Z")
[Investigated, found not credible.](http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/23/us/theory-tying-aids-to-polio-vaccine-is-discounted.html) [Investigated, refuted.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15103367) [Investigated by the WHO, found not credible.](http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/state2000-04.html) [Summary of information that refutes the claim.](http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/10/aids-didnt-come/) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/22 "2013-12-04T05:07:53Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > . . . and a load of fringe baggage is granted to the messenger. . . . **Budget Player Cadet** took pains to exempt you from any blame; he went out of his way to note that he did not hold you responsible for the material you questioned. He granted no fringe baggage to you in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/23 "2013-12-04T07:11:36Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I hope you realize you seem as fundamentalist as the conspiracy kooks, by not even engaging the discussion. Ah, the appeal to the golden mean. As if we need to find a middle ground between the people trying to save lives by wiping deadly diseases off the face of the Earth and the con artists who put children in jeopardy to line their own pockets. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/24 "2013-12-04T09:36:34Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > To be fair, my OP said nothing about whether vaccines are good or not, or suggested that I agree with the anti-vaccine conspiratorial crowd. I know, and I took great pains to point out that as long as you’re posting this out of honest curiosity, I don’t have beef with you. > [@](#): > > I worry that a mere theory that seems to contain a few logical connections is so vehemently shot down and a load of fringe baggage is granted to the messenger. I hope you realize you seem as fundamentalist as the conspiracy kooks, by not even engaging the discussion. There’s not really a discussion to be had. This issue is just done. It’s been investigated and every major organization who’s ever looked at it honestly has come to the same conclusion: there’s nothing to it. It fails on numerous levels. And there’s nothing fundamentalist about this approach - you did not provide any solid evidence (not even the name of the documentary) and we were able to come back in an instant with strong refutations from credible sources. At that point, there’s not much discussion to be had. All mention of this “theory” can be shoved in the FUD Corner. And yes, there is baggage when you come in here and bring up an ancient, long-debunked anti-vaccine trope. But the scientific community didn’t put it there. Rather, it was instilled by the way that anti-vaccination fanatics act, past and present. Although my benefit of the doubt is starting to wane somewhat: > [@Stringbean](#): > > A site dedicated to how great vaccines are is far from the material I require for a proper debunking. I will, however, take it into account. Yeah… This is kind of like saying “A site dedicated to talking about gravity is far from the material I require for a proper debunking of my flat-earth pet theory”. That’s what happens when you bring up long-debunked theories. Almost all counter-evidence will end up coming from sites designed to counteract this misinformation. When I want to debunk creationist claims, I go to TalkOrigins. Most sites that talk primarily about vaccination are going to be quite clear on their stance on whether or not vaccines are good. Because, as pointed out previously, vaccines are quite possibly the single most indisputably beneficial societal advancement in the history of mankind. Of course, others have provided you with numerous links from other sources, as have I. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/25 "2013-12-04T10:38:00Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I’ve always feared King Cholera, myself. Another natural disaster? I wince because it’s usually followed by Cholera, Typhus, Typhoid, and a host of other things Mother Nature has designed to kill us. I too would love to avoid shitting myself to death!:eek:☹ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/26 "2013-12-04T13:15:07Z")
As **BPC** ’s link demonstrates, the polio vaccine-HIV claim has been circulating since the mid-1980s, and no matter how many times and how convincingly it is debunked, it occasionally resurfaces out of antivax zombie-land. There is nothing remotely “fundamentalist” in swatting down this moldy nonsense, any more than it is “fundamentalist” to be impatient with 9/11 claims that have been debunked over and over and over again. It also takes about a minute on Google to find multiple excellent polio vaccine-HIV theory refutations, if one’s curiosity is sparked by seeing a “documentary” on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/27 "2013-12-04T18:08:18Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > What makes it worse is he didn’t even believe it. He was trying to discredit the vaccine since he had patented a competing vaccine. In a just world, someone would intentionally give him smallpox. And then refuse to allow him to get medical treatment. In a just world. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/28 "2013-12-04T19:08:36Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I worry that a mere theory that seems to contain a few logical connections is so vehemently shot down and a load of fringe baggage is granted to the messenger. I hope you realize you seem as fundamentalist as the conspiracy kooks, by not even engaging the discussion. You need to realize that the theory in your OP is about as credible as the earth-is-the-center-of-the-universe theory, albeit it not as old but much more dangerous. The responses were fairly measured in that context. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/29 "2013-12-04T19:12:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, we’re not even a century past the Spanish Flu - killed more people in three years than AIDS has in three decades. > Anyway, the alternative version of the OP’s suggestion I heard a while back was that HIV was spread in part because of the reuse of syringes during large-scale immunization efforts in Africa, i.e. unsanitary practices rather than any specific problem with one or more vaccines. This was told to me by a friend of mine who was an Assistant Chemistry Professor at McGill circa 1993, but he might have been just repeating a hypothesis he’d heard somewhere. I personally believe that reuse of syringes and other medical equipment accounts for a large proportion of AIDS in the Third World. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/30 "2013-12-04T22:06:17Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > To be fair, my OP said nothing about whether vaccines are good or not, or suggested that I agree with the anti-vaccine conspiratorial crowd. > > I worry that a mere theory that seems to contain a few logical connections is so vehemently shot down and a load of fringe baggage is granted to the messenger. I hope you realize you seem as fundamentalist as the conspiracy kooks, by not even engaging the discussion. On some issues the “discussion” is long over and the facts settled. Just because some cranks re-tell the fib doesn’t make it valid. This is one of those issues. At this point anyone saying “Vaccines have cause ‘x’” where ‘x’ is anything besides the reduction/elimination of a disease is going to be looked at with a very, very jaundiced eye. This is just natural given the vehement and deadly efforts anti-vaxxers have made to bring back otherwise eliminated diseases. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/31 "2013-12-04T22:13:44Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > As I see it, they have a vested interest in trying to destroy this theory, since it basically posits that scientific endeavor may have given humanity the worst disease it’s ever come across. What makes you think that AIDS is the worst disease humanity has ever come across? I’ll bet money Spanish flu has slain more people and far more quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/32 "2013-12-04T22:16:45Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I personally believe that reuse of syringes and other medical equipment accounts for a large proportion of AIDS in the Third World. What makes you believe that? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/33 "2013-12-04T22:17:07Z")
Smallpox was unequivocally far FAR worse for humanity than HIV is. Luckily, it was wiped out. By a vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/34 "2013-12-04T22:43:36Z")
I appreciate the responses, and I do feel that they were respectful. I honestly wasn’t aware that some people think that vaccines are a vast conspiracy perpetrated against the world. The documentary I watched never suggested this kind of fringe idea, so I was a little surprised at the veracity at some of the responses. I do want to apologize to Budget Player Cadet, after re-reading his post it was clear he was trying to avoid attacking me personally. After doing some more research, it seems the general consensus in 2013 is that SIV has been present in various forms for tens of thousands of years, and that the first contact with humans likely occurred as early as the 1930’s. The idea is that people were getting infected on small scales, and transmission to other humans was very low. However, in the 1950’s things exploded and the disease began spreading rapidly. What is interesting, is that scientists still do not know exactly how it was transmitted to humans in the first place, given that humans have been in contact with primates for a long time. I was expecting this to have been satisfactorily answered (and hard proof of cases before the 1950’s) for the vaccine theory to have been thoroughly debunked. That said, I will consider the matter put to rest. As a string of coincidences, it raises an eyebrow. But I cannot consider it anything more at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/35 "2013-12-04T23:16:56Z")
It’s good that you’ve given this matter further thought and drawn more appropriate conclusions. I would however question the idea that thorough debunking of the polio-vaccine-caused-AIDS meme depends on definitively establishing just when and where HIV first emerged. Just because there remains some mystery about how HIV reached epidemic status does not give credence to those blaming polio vaccine.\* \*This is the kind of argument employed by antivaxers who falsely link autism with vaccination. Their “logic” tells them that since the etiology of autism has been only partially explained, their poorly reasoned and non-evidence based claims are somehow valid. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/36 "2013-12-05T02:15:21Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Smallpox was unequivocally far FAR worse for humanity than HIV is. Luckily, it was wiped out. > > By a vaccine. As was, very nearly, Polio, until some nuts put the kibosh on that. ☹ > [@Stringbean](#): > > What is interesting, is that scientists still do not know exactly how it was transmitted to humans in the first place, given that humans have been in contact with primates for a long time. I was expecting this to have been satisfactorily answered (and hard proof of cases before the 1950’s) for the vaccine theory to have been thoroughly debunked. Simple: It probably came from contact with monkey blood, like while preparing “bushmeat.” Not all diseases are limited to a single class, much less species, of host. Influenza, I believe, is the biggest slut out there, bouncing from swine and poultry to humans all the time. Before the 1950s the areas where SIV had made the jump were lightly populated, with little contact with other areas. That changed as transportation improved and what had started as a local disease became pandemic. I blame Air Canada because I like to blame Canada for everything. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/37 "2013-12-05T05:25:23Z")
Even if this ‘documentary’ were 100% true (IT ISN’T!) I would have to say that the ultra-pragmatist in me would have to say: “that price might damn near be worth it”. That is to say: If you were to turn into a god and tell me that I have a choice: “AIDS can be gone tomorrow but Polio will return in full strength, or you can choose to have Polio remain as an almost wiped out disease but AIDS remains” I wouldn’t even have to think about it very hard - AIDS remains, Polio stays gone. AIDS is horrible. Polio? I’m sorry but the thought of that returning sends multiple shivers up my spine. I say this as someone who has known people with AIDS, but is not old enough to remember a world without the Polio vaccine let alone anyone suffering from the effects of Polio. It is just that scary to me. ---
**Author:** ![GreedySmurf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a698b9/32.png) [@GreedySmurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreedySmurf)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/38 "2013-12-05T05:41:09Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > AIDS is horrible. Polio? I’m sorry but the thought of that returning sends multiple shivers up my spine. I say this as someone who has known people with AIDS, but is not old enough to remember a world without the Polio vaccine let alone anyone suffering from the effects of Polio. It is just that scary to me. That’s the bit about anti-vaxxers that really does my head in. The only reason that ‘thought’ or attitude can even exist is because of vaccines, that have meant people haven’t had to grow up experiencing the effects of Polio, Smallpox, Measles, etc, etc, etc. I’m normally a pretty placid person but this topic gets my blood boiling every time. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/39 "2013-12-05T06:16:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > What makes you think that AIDS is the worst disease humanity has ever come across? I’ll bet money Spanish flu has slain more people and far more quickly. That, and smallpox and malaria, and measles has always had an extremely high fatality rate when introduced into virgin populations. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/40 "2013-12-05T06:19:10Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Even if this ‘documentary’ were 100% true (IT ISN’T!) I would have to say that the ultra-pragmatist in me would have to say: “that price might damn near be worth it”. > > That is to say: If you were to turn into a god and tell me that I have a choice: “AIDS can be gone tomorrow but Polio will return in full strength, or you can choose to have Polio remain as an almost wiped out disease but AIDS remains” I wouldn’t even have to think about it very hard - AIDS remains, Polio stays gone. > > AIDS is horrible. Polio? I’m sorry but the thought of that returning sends multiple shivers up my spine. I say this as someone who has known people with AIDS, but is not old enough to remember a world without the Polio vaccine let alone anyone suffering from the effects of Polio. It is just that scary to me. 25 or 30 years ago, lots of people would have said the reverse, because not only did we not know how to treat AIDS, we didn’t even know how it was caused in the first place until 1985. I live in an area with a sizable refugee population, mostly from Africa and Southeast Asia, and around here, you sometimes see people who are not all that old and are clearly polio survivors. Post-polio syndrome is a horrific condition too, and one that often defies any treatment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420.md?page=3)