# Polio vaccine as origin of HIV **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420 "2013-12-04T00:29:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/41 "2013-12-05T06:21:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What makes you believe that? While I have never traveled overseas, I know people who have, and things are often reused until they literally cannot be any more, and unfortunately, that sometimes includes syringes which may not be adequately sterilized between uses. AIDS is not an easy virus to transmit, and I just can’t believe that you can have infection rates as high as 50% just from sex alone. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/42 "2013-12-05T06:23:02Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > That, and smallpox and malaria, and measles has always had an extremely high fatality rate when introduced into virgin populations. Didn’t make the edit deadline. Don’t forget about cholera, typhus, and other diseases associated with poor sanitation. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/43 "2013-12-05T07:38:13Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > What is interesting, is that scientists still do not know exactly how it was transmitted to humans in the first place, given that humans have been in contact with primates for a long time. I was expecting this to have been satisfactorily answered (and hard proof of cases before the 1950’s) for the vaccine theory to have been thoroughly debunked. An important thing to keep in mind is that HIV/AIDS research was shamefully underfunded and ignored for years, and one of the big reasons was homophobia (which continues to be a problem WRT AIDS research/treatment/transmission, especially in cultures that are more strongly homophobic). [Societal attitudes can have a huge impact on the progress of an epidemic.](http://www.sagepub.com/newman5study/resources/aids.htm) > [@](#): > > Today, of course, funding for AIDS treatment, research, and prevention is in the billions. But why did it take so long for the magnitude of the epidemic to be recognized by the public, the government, and the scientific community? Part of the reason was the stigmatized identity of the majority of the earliest victims—gay men, intravenous drug users, and so on. To many citizens, AIDS was self-inflicted punishment for unnatural and repugnant behavior. Such prejudice existed even among the scientific community in the mid-1980s: Researchers reaped little prestige from studying a “homosexual disease.” So first you have trouble getting anyone to research HIV/AIDS at all. Once you get past that, it makes sense that the focus of research will mainly be how to prevent and treat the disease that is an immediate threat instead of looking back with limited information to try to nail down the first human transmission. Not saying it isn’t important to look at that. But when you had tens of thousands of people in the US dying from AIDS each _year_, that’s understandably going to demand most of your attention. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/44 "2013-12-05T08:10:33Z")
I think this is an interesting case. I think often people seems to assume that all the scientists are in something together - and are trying to cover each other’s back. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you are the first scientist to discover something - or publish something - you are set. If Wakefield had been right - it doesn’t matter how many pharam companies were against him - he just really needed SOME other scientists to confirm his findings. Not only couldn’t they - but they found the opposite. On first glance - this case makes some sense - it has some plausibility (or at least it appears to to the non scientist - I don’t know enough to say that on its face it was ridiculous). So scientists did what they should - they investigated. Where the OP goes off the rails is assuming that a scientist would cover up for the original guy who made the vaccine. Why would he/she? Do you have any idea how important it would be to be the first scientist to PROVE that HIV/Polio Vaccine are related? They would get much more out of that than any sort of loyalty to the polio vaccine. If someone actually covers that up - she/he risks their reputation when someone else comes along and proves them wrong. It isn’t like if the Rolling Stone story was correct - that meant the polio vaccine was a bad thing. It meant it was contaminated. Anyway - IMHO - sure - no problem in saying - hey what is going on here (actually there sort of is - as others have pointed out - the anti-vas crowd is full of wackos that will try and find anything to support their voodoo). But once scientists look into it and say - nope - this vaccine doesn’t come from chimps AND EVEN if it did - it is a different disease - once that happens and you still believe it - you basically are saying that science can’t be trusted at all. That docs are just out to make a profit. You know the same docs that would be much better off (financially) in treating someone for polio, small pox, and all the other diseases that have been basically eradicated. I think the argument in this case was slightly different - that it was really only the original scientist who they were trying to protect, but it still falls apart. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/45 "2013-12-05T08:25:28Z")
> [@DataX](#): > > If Wakefield had been right /pedantic hijack I find it interesting that most people don’t know that Wakefield’s infamous study actually DID get it right. In the conclusion/discussion section of the retracted study (still available, with the giant red “RETRACTED” stamp on all pages), he and his co-authors stated “We did not prove an association with the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described.” He just continues to lie about the results. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/46 "2013-12-05T13:41:05Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > AIDS is horrible. Polio? I’m sorry but the thought of that returning sends multiple shivers up my spine. I say this as someone who has known people with AIDS, but is not old enough to remember a world without the Polio vaccine let alone anyone suffering from the effects of Polio. It is just that scary to me. I’ve known people who died from AIDS, people who live with AIDS, people who lost a child or a sibling to polio, a woman who spent 50 years bedridden and blind thanks to polio, and I’d rather die from AIDS myself than have polio come back. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/47 "2013-12-05T16:29:20Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > What is interesting, is that scientists still do not know exactly how it was transmitted to humans in the first place, given that humans have been in contact with primates for a long time. I was expecting this to have been satisfactorily answered This is not true. Scientists do know exactly how it was transmitted to humans in the first place. I already provided a [cite for it in my post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16899013&postcount=4). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/48 "2013-12-05T17:09:06Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > To be fair, my OP said nothing about whether vaccines are good or not, or suggested that I agree with the anti-vaccine conspiratorial crowd. True. That’s why **BBC** said he was giving you the benefit of the doubt. > [@Stringbean](#): > > I worry that a mere theory that seems to contain a few logical connections is so vehemently shot down and a load of fringe baggage is granted to the messenger. I hope you realize you seem as fundamentalist as the conspiracy kooks, by not even engaging the discussion. The discussion has been engaged, right here _ad infinitum_ since _before_ Wakefield and McCarthy joined the fray. It’s perfectly valid to decline the opportunity to re-invent the wheel every day, and doing so does not make one a fundamentalist, a kook, or a conspiracy theorist. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/49 "2013-12-05T17:36:11Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > /pedantic hijack > > I find it interesting that most people don’t know that Wakefield’s infamous study actually DID get it right. In the conclusion/discussion section of the retracted study (still available, with the giant red “RETRACTED” stamp on all pages), he and his co-authors stated “We did not prove an association with the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described.” > > He just continues to lie about the results. Not pedantic at all - I did not realize (or forgot) that. Although - I think the interpretation part was still wrong (or misleading) > [@](#): > > Interpretation > We identified associated gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children, which was generally associated in time with possible environmental triggers. Although it is vague and I don’t grasp all the parts of that study very well. Thanks for pointing it out. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/50 "2013-12-05T17:38:26Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > 25 or 30 years ago, lots of people would have said the reverse, because not only did we not know how to treat AIDS, we didn’t even know how it was caused in the first place until 1985. I disagree. Even then it was known that one could take reasonable precautions to limit one’s exposure to AIDS. When Polio was at its peak people were afraid of summer and would send their children to the country to prevent their exposure. People born after the mid 50’s really don’t understand how good we have it. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/51 "2013-12-05T17:51:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What makes you believe that? In 2003 in Henan Province in China there was a reported 1.2 million cases of HIV attributed to poor sanitation practices in for profit plasma pheresis centers. That’s one province alone. Here’s a link to a [cite](http://bloodbanker.com/plasma/page/3/). Work your way a little down the page. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/52 "2013-12-05T22:24:23Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > An important thing to keep in mind is that HIV/AIDS research was shamefully underfunded and ignored for years, and one of the big reasons was homophobia (which continues to be a problem WRT AIDS research/treatment/transmission, especially in cultures that are more strongly homophobic). [Societal attitudes can have a huge impact on the progress of an epidemic.](http://www.sagepub.com/newman5study/resources/aids.htm) We also don’t exactly have a plethora of tissue samples of people who died in the African Bush in the 1940s and 1950s, or earlier. So when you are trying to pin point exactly when or where, you are stuck looking at the DNA signature of the virus and extrapolating, you don’t have a case of origin. The DNA points to a crossover a decade or more before the polio virus was developed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/53 "2013-12-05T22:38:16Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > In 2003 in Henan Province in China there was a reported 1.2 million cases of HIV attributed to poor sanitation practices in for profit plasma pheresis centers. That’s one province alone. Here’s a link to a [cite](http://bloodbanker.com/plasma/page/3/). Work your way a little down the page. Does China count as the Third World? /pedant Thanks for the cite. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420/54 "2013-12-05T22:51:26Z")
Smallpox is my vote for worst disease ever. Easily caught, a one in three fatality rate, no real treatment or cure, a serious risk of horrible side effects like blindness or disfigurement. Shudder. I am so glad vaccines took that sucker out. The estimates I’ve seen are 400 million dead before the vaccine. I don’t think people get just how joyful people were to have any means of prevention for it. Thomas Jefferson was besotted with even the early and sometimes quite dangerous version of the vax. > [@](#): > > [Disease and Inoculation in the 18th Century | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello](http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/invisible-heroes-battling-smallpox) > > After becoming president in 1801, Jefferson expanded his commitment to smallpox inoculation. His library catalog indicates that he followed the work of the British physicians Edward Jenner and John Lettsom in their experiments with the use of the milder cowpox as an effective immunization against smallpox.[11] He worked with American doctors, especially Benjamin Waterhouse, to establish this new vaccine, also known as kinepox, in the United States and allowed his name to be used as an endorsement. > > Jefferson brought his involvement to a new level during the summer of 1801, when he directed the inoculation of Monticello slaves, his sons-in-law, and some of his neighbors – about 200 people in all, according to his estimate. He began with vaccine received from Dr. Waterhouse but then was able to collect his own vaccine from those inoculated, and from this was able to send vaccine to other parts of Virginia and to Washington. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polio-vaccine-as-origin-of-hiv/675420.md?page=2)