# "Polite" things that are actually impolite **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 15, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951 "2016-08-15T20:23:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/261 "2016-08-18T23:58:04Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > You know, **ZPG** (can I call you **ZPG**?), there are lots of nasty and unpleasant people in the world, for sure. But in my experience, no matter where you go, there are also many who are nice, friendly, happy, charming, kind to their fellow humans, and pleasurable to be around. I get the distinct impression that you have never, in your life, met a single one of the latter category. I find that very strange. > > Either that, or someone is peeing in your cornflakes every single morning, and yet you keep eating it. It’s unfortunate you have that impression of my life because I have known hundreds if not thousands of wonderful, kind, caring people in my life time who are an absolute joy to be around. I’ve known plenty of bad, evil people whose deaths I won’t mourn. And I have meet lots and lots of people that swing between the two extremes. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/262 "2016-08-18T23:59:57Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s unfortunate you have that impression of my life because I have known hundreds if not thousands of wonderful, kind, caring people in my life time who are an absolute joy to be around. Well, it might be nice if you could talk about those once in a while, too. Anyway, I guess it’s the cornflakes thing, then. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/263 "2016-08-19T00:12:12Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > What ends up happening is people end up mocking **ZPG** ’s culture instead of her inflexible attitude toward cultural etiquette, which is also not cool. There’s nothing inherently wrong with **ZPG** being culturally offended by a man touching her without permission/a good reason. What’s wrong is that she judges people who don’t hold that same cultural standard as morally inferior. I actually don’t think that’s what goes on very much at all. I don’t see very many people mocking her culture here or elsewhere. What I see is her adopting a position that I, in a previous search, was unable to find any Roma going on record adopting, and then adopting similarly unreasonable positions that have very little to do with culture and everything to do with an individual approach to other people, an approach full of hostility, mistrust, and contempt. It’s that individual approach that meets such disapproval here, not Roma culture. If a woman tells me, “I prefer not to shake hands,” of course I won’t mock her for it. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/264 "2016-08-19T00:20:10Z")
FWIW (not that anyone asked me specifically), if we all voted to get rid of handshakes tomorrow, I couldn’t be happier. The idea of physically touching people I don’t know (and, to be honest, many people I do know) is very uncomfortable to me. And it seems strange: We have this concept of bodily autonomy, and of no one having the right to touch you without your permission. And yet, people keep sticking their hands out to me, expecting me to shake them, and if I don’t want to, I’m somehow the weirdo. If there was some polite and socially acceptable way for me to decline, without having people look at me funny for it, I would do that every time. I don’t think I’ve ever, in my life, initiated a handshake. With a man, with a woman, makes no difference. This is \*not \*about any love for handshakes, on my part. Fuck handshakes. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/265 "2016-08-19T00:54:54Z")
ZPG holds tenaciously to a form of etiquette that has long been made obsolete by the advancement of women in business and society. Essentially, it demands that respect be shown to women by treating them differently than you would a man, as if they uniquely have a reputation that must be protected. Everything she says about etiquette was true 50 years ago, but thankfully she seems to be the lone holdout I’ve ever met that thinks this mindset is correct and appropriate these days. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/266 "2016-08-19T00:55:02Z")
I have zero basis for judging what is Roma vs. an individual characteristic so I’m not sure how to evaluate that argument. **ZPG Zealot** is the only person I have ever encountered who I am aware identifies as Roma. Sometimes I wish we had more active Roma posters here so that ignorant people like me might get a clue as to the variation within this culture. [QUOTE=Martian Bigfoot] This is not about any love for handshakes, on my part. Fuck handshakes. [/QUOTE] I’m not a super outgoing person and I have fairly reserved personal physical boundaries for the majority of people. Handshakes I don’t mind, and consider standard behavior in business transactions (I offered my hand to the guy at Sears who sold me my freezer, it never crossed my mind that might make him uncomfortable.) Unsolicited hugs are not my favorite, but having to kiss 100 people in twenty minutes is super unpleasant. I jokingly call it, and these formal events associated with it, the ‘nepotism tax.’ I have sympathy for you, if handshakes make you uncomfortable, it makes you look like an ass if you don’t take their hand, and that’s not fair. At the same time, I feel like the way I shake someone’s hand can make all the difference in the world for first impressions and how I am treated. It is the cultural norm where I’m from, especially in business contexts. I used to work at a Jewish retirement facility and became very good friends with the rabbi. On my last day of work, I shook his hand, having no clue whatsoever it was taboo for him to touch women. He seemed a little put off but was otherwise completely gracious. I didn’t find out it was a cultural taboo until my husband told me later (he did a lot of work in the Orthodox Jewish community.) I felt bad for putting such a nice man in that position of discomfort but I was doing what was culturally appropriate for _me._ If I had known I wouldn’t have done it. Part of cross-cultural communication/accomodation is compromise. Where and how people should draw that line is open to debate. If I were from a culture that considered shaking women’s hands taboo, and I went to a job interview with a male, I might say, ‘‘I’m not comfortable shaking hands, but it is an absolute pleasure to meet you.’’ Yeah they might hold it against me, but I would still do my best to make it clear I understood I was the odd one out. And yeah, if I told someone that and he shook my hand anyway, he’d be the jackass. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/267 "2016-08-19T00:55:54Z")
ZPG - You have had an eventful life. Roma education? Italy, Latin? When living in a new place, do you try to adapt to the region, and what is accepted by the local culture? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/268 "2016-08-19T00:55:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I actually don’t think that’s what goes on very much at all. I don’t see very many people mocking her culture here or elsewhere. What I see is her adopting a position that I, in a previous search, was unable to find any Roma going on record adopting, and then adopting similarly unreasonable positions that have very little to do with culture and everything to do with an individual approach to other people, an approach full of hostility, mistrust, and contempt. > > It’s that individual approach that meets such disapproval here, not Roma culture. If a woman tells me, “I prefer not to shake hands,” of course I won’t mock her for it. Oh god don’t say adopting… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/269 "2016-08-19T00:58:04Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > ZPG holds tenaciously to a form of etiquette that has long been made obsolete by the advancement of women in business and society. Essentially, it demands that respect be shown to women by treating them differently than you would a man, as if they uniquely have a reputation that must be protected. Everything she says about etiquette was true 50 years ago, but thankfully she seems to be the lone holdout I’ve ever met that thinks this mindset is correct and appropriate these days. No, women were shaking hands long before that. In fact, in the 19th century a woman would offer her hand to be kissed. So, no 50, not 100, not even 150. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/270 "2016-08-19T00:59:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, women were shaking hands long before that. In fact, in the 19th century a woman would offer her hand to be kissed. Even a Roma woman? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/271 "2016-08-19T01:01:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I went to the University of Houston for a year than got full financial backing to attend Sweetbriar College by some lovely women who were interested in Roma education. I have got a Bachelors (Sweet Briar) and Masters in History (Univ. of AL) (yeah, I know not the most employable of degrees) and Masters in Library Science (Univ. of North Texas). And you work as a fortune teller? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/272 "2016-08-19T01:01:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, women were shaking hands long before that. In fact, in the 19th century a woman would offer her hand to be kissed. > > So, no 50, not 100, not even 150. ZPG doesn’t personally shake hands with men, and because of that she believes that we should stick to the old etiquette that a man should only shake a woman’s had if she offers it first. Which IS the old form of etiquette that was taught in my mother’s generation. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/273 "2016-08-19T01:02:32Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I used to work at a Jewish retirement facility and became very good friends with the rabbi. On my last day of work, I shook his hand, having no clue whatsoever it was taboo for him to touch women. He seemed a little put off but was otherwise completely gracious. I didn’t find out it was a cultural taboo until my husband told me later (he did a lot of work in the Orthodox Jewish community.) I felt bad for putting such a nice man in that position of discomfort but I was doing what was culturally appropriate for _me._ If I had known I wouldn’t have done it. Yes, that’s true- and certainly not a WASP custom there, eh? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/274 "2016-08-19T01:03:23Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I get the impression that this was done rather tongue-in-cheek. > > This may or may not be the kind of thing you’re looking for, but there are situations when you’re driving where you have the right-of-way, and allowing someone else to go first may seem like the “polite” thing to do, but it’s actually a bad idea because it’s confusing or dangerous. > [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Breaking traffic rules to “be nice”. > > In general I want someone else to be consistent so it is easy to plan for. If you are breaking traffic conventions to let me go first I have to adjust for something unexpected. Plus, you are probably slowing everyone else down and making traffic generally move slower in aggregate, so you’ve hurt more than you helped. > > EDIT: ninja’d! I meant to comment on this before. This type of driving is incredibly common in the part of Ohio I’m from. Absolutely maddening. People complain about drivers in Los Angeles, but I was so glad to find that this mistaken “nice” driving was not an issue there, most of the time. Now in Maryland, I’d take either LA drivers OR OHIO DRIVERS. Gah. (Generalities coming) LA drivers are aggressive but good. Ohio drivers are passive and bad. Maryland drivers are aggressive and bad. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/275 "2016-08-19T01:04:17Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > ZPG doesn’t personally shake hands with men, and because of that she believes that we should stick to the old etiquette that a man should only shake a woman’s had if she offers it first. Which IS the old form of etiquette that was taught in my mother’s generation. I mean, isn’t that what most men do? I find I usually have to offer my hand to get a handshake, whereas between two men it’s the default. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/276 "2016-08-19T01:06:54Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I simple do not believe you have every spent any time around women (or men the more I think about it). Period. I just checked your public profile. You are from East Texas and you have never encountered Southern women that are cliquish and who shun and scorn outsiders. Not effing possible. Sure I have; being cliquish and shunning / scorning outsiders. But I’ve never heard such idiocy as saying that “congratulations” to a bride could bring ridicule and permanent estrangement to a future union. At least, not since before the frigging turn of the century. It’s all bullshit and there’s only one place it’s going on… the colorful and fanciful fiction of these pages. That’s it. Further, when anyone I’ve ever known of that behaved even remotely like you swear happens all the time, most folks consider them assholes unworthy of valuing their opinions. Certainly not acting like we should kowtow to such lunacy and fear that their gossipy crap about inconsequential first world problems will somehow get their spouses fired or some such. All of this is nothing but hoped-for fantasy. And why anyone would want that (or pretend to) is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/277 "2016-08-19T01:12:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And you work as a fortune teller? I’m an academic librarian. But that’s not a high-paying career though it is very rewarding and I love it enough to put in around 45 hours a week. Fortune-telling and selling spiritual paraphernalia brings in more money. A lot more morning. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/278 "2016-08-19T01:13:12Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I mean, isn’t that what most men do? I find I usually have to offer my hand to get a handshake, whereas between two men it’s the default. Yes, in my experience, but ZPG leads a much more exciting life than the average person. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/279 "2016-08-19T01:17:01Z")
Gonna have to tell my Wife to not shake the hand of our contractor, and I’m going to have to stop giving him a back slap and buddy hug. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951/280 "2016-08-19T01:18:55Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > ZPG - You have had an eventful life. > > Roma education? Italy, Latin? > > When living in a new place, do you try to adapt to the region, and what is accepted by the local culture? Roma is an ethnic minority that originated in India. We have a culture, a language, and in my opinion (though plenty those plenty of argument over this) a religion all our own. We adapt as necessary to survive. I usually adapt within reason. I am not going to do something I consider immoral however just to get along. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polite-things-that-are-actually-impolite/762951.md?page=15)