# Political Compass #21: Abortion should be illegal. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2004, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-21-abortion-should-be-illegal/245092 "2004-05-14T10:08:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![d\_redguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@d\_redguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/d_redguy)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-21-abortion-should-be-illegal/245092/101 "2004-05-19T00:09:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I disagree but not strongly. As a religious person, I am very troubled at the prospect of ending a human life. The pertinent question is, at which point does the fetus become fully human and endowed with the same rights as the rest of us? If you believe in a soul, at which point does the soul enter the fetus? Nobody can answer these questions. > > In the end, what keeps me from being a “right to lifer” is the lack of unanimity among religions regarding abortion. If all major religions condemned abortion, I might be inclined to switch positions as a matter of there being a clear moral consensus against it. But without that clear moral consensus, then I side with keeping my own religious beliefs out of public policy. I side more with the mother, for which we all agree has rights, than with the fetus, for whom such agreement is lacking. A cowardly position at best. Especially in light of your being troubled by the prospect of ending a human life. There was a time in this country that not everyone believed that Africans had inalienable rights. That they were “less than human”. There certainly was not a “clear moral consensus” on the issue. Just because we don’t agree on who has rights doesn’t mean that they don’t have them. It just means that someone is being **denied** rights. If believe in a soul, and you cannot answer the question as to when it “enters” a fetus, then you really have little choice but to follow the morally safest course, and protect the said being from the point when “ensoulment” has even the remotest possibility to occur. I’d say that **SentientMeat’s** 18 weeks is a touch less conservative than originally thought. But then, **SentientMeat** isn’t positing a soul. Not to say that his arguments are more valid. In fact, the logic circles seem to be getting tighter and tighter in this here thread. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-21-abortion-should-be-illegal/245092/102 "2004-05-19T00:21:48Z")
But in the absence of it being a universally denounced by all religions, such as murder or incest, then I believe the conservative approach is to let each one’s conscience decide. My having misgivings about the possibility of ending a human life does not let me dictate to others who are not religious or whose religion does not teach that abortion is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![d\_redguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@d\_redguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/d_redguy)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-21-abortion-should-be-illegal/245092/103 "2004-05-19T00:47:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > But in the absence of it being a universally denounced by all religions, such as murder or incest, then I believe the conservative approach is to let each one’s conscience decide. My having misgivings about the possibility of ending a human life does not let me dictate to others who are not religious or whose religion does not teach that abortion is wrong. Again, if you are waiting for a universal denouncement of anything, you will be waiting for a long time. And I’d sure like to see a cite about these universal denouncements of which you speak. You have misgivings about the possibility of ending a human life, and the best you can come up with is a slightly oogy feeling? Well, that and, “Well, so long as you think it’s ok…” ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-21-abortion-should-be-illegal/245092/104 "2004-05-19T05:55:12Z")
> [@d\_redguy](#): > > Again, if you are waiting for a universal denouncement of anything, you will be waiting for a long time. And I’d sure like to see a cite about these universal denouncements of which you speak. > > You have misgivings about the possibility of ending a human life, and the best you can come up with is a slightly oogy feeling? Well, that and, “Well, so long as you think it’s ok…” If it’s so obvious that abortion is murder, why is the country so divided on this issue? I have no cites on this of course, but I think 99.9% of us would agree that throwing 5 year olds into wood chippers is absolutely evil and should not be permitted under any circumstances. But for a large number of people abortion is not the moral equivalent of throwing a born child into a wood chipper. What is it that makes so many people think abortion is a permissable option? Even many pro-lifers would permit a fetus to be terminated if it was the product of rape or incest. But they wouldn’t allow such a child who was already born to be killed. Our society recognizes that a fetus, even if it is human, is not completely deserving of full recognition as such. That’s why it’s not typical to hold funerals for miscarriages, and why fetuses are not counted on census forms. ---
**Author:** ![d\_redguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@d\_redguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/d_redguy)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-21-abortion-should-be-illegal/245092/105 "2004-05-19T11:25:35Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > What is it that makes so many people think abortion is a permissable option? Even many pro-lifers would permit a fetus to be terminated if it was the product of rape or incest. But they wouldn’t allow such a child who was already born to be killed. Yeah, I am aware of this inconsistency. I cannot speak for all pro-lifers, but I might be able to understand the mindset. For me, that sort of thinking would come from an angle of compromise. The set of laws on the books now allow for abortion on demand. The thought process **may** go, “Heck, we will give you ‘abortion-in-the-case-of-rape-and-incest’, just so long as this whole ‘abortion-on-demand’ business stops!” YMMV. Mine does, as I don’t really go for it. > [@Blalron](#): > > Our society recognizes that a fetus, even if it is human, is not completely deserving of full recognition as such. That’s why it’s not typical to hold funerals for miscarriages, and why fetuses are not counted on census forms. I ignored the funeral argument for the red herring that it is the first time it came up in this thread, but now I guess I will call bs on it outright. So we don’t have funerals for fetuses, and we don’t count them on census forms. So it’s ok to kill them. Right. Funerals are for the living, not the dead. Funerals are where we remember the impact the dead had on our lives. Admittedly, it’s difficult to find such an impact that a fetus may have as to deserve a funeral. However, my unborn child, if he or she were to miscarry, would definitely receive a mourning period by quite a few people. So there **would** be some recognition of loss. Just because the recognition doesn’t put on a black suit or a veil doesn’t invalidate it. Additionally, what society recognizes has nothing to do with the subject. You are using “society’s” opinion as a massive appeal to authority. What qualifications do they have? Not only that, but you just agreeing with the part of society that holds up your viewpoint. If we are so divided on the issue, how does your appeal to authority hold up? 150 years ago, this nation was divided on the issue of slavery. Today, the fact that slavery is wrong is a no-brainer. So why was the nation so divided about slavery? Greed? Convenience? ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-21-abortion-should-be-illegal/245092/106 "2004-05-19T12:49:46Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If it’s so obvious that abortion is murder, why is the country so divided on this issue? . Is it **obvious** to you that gays should have the same basic rights to marry and adopt kids as straight folks? Good thing that the country is not divided on that issue…oh wait. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-21-abortion-should-be-illegal/245092/107 "2004-05-20T03:19:02Z")
> [@](#): > > If we are so divided on the issue, how does your appeal to authority hold up? To try to get those on the fence on this issue to examine their feelings about fetal rights. I’m also attempting to get moderate pro-lifers to realize the logical results of accepting fetuses as complete persons the same as born children. I think much anti-abortion sentiment is based upon disdain for sexual irresponsibility rather than concern for the fetus. Which is why even some pro-lifers would permit abortion in cases of rape. You’re correct in pointing out that the majority and tradition is not always right. But nevertheless it still carries some weight. Majority and tradition should at least have a presumption of correctness that must be overcome. ---
**Author:** ![d\_redguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@d\_redguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/d_redguy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-21-abortion-should-be-illegal/245092/108 "2004-05-20T05:54:17Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’m also attempting to get moderate pro-lifers to realize the logical results of accepting fetuses as complete persons the same as born children. I think much anti-abortion sentiment is based upon disdain for sexual irresponsibility rather than concern for the fetus. So your argument is that if we make abortion illegal, it is just a slippery slope leading to fetus funerals? :rolleyes: As far as disdain for sexual irresponsibility is concerned, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? So certain people frown on sexual irresponsibility. So what? They are still right about abortion. If sexual rights are your fight, you’re in the wrong arena. Right now you’re throwing out the fetus with the bathwater. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-21-abortion-should-be-illegal/245092.md?page=5)