# Political Compass #33: Political Compass #33: 'Savage people' vs. 'different culture' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2004, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221 "2004-08-17T10:28:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/41 "2004-08-23T11:50:28Z")
The word “peoples” implies a synonym with the word “cultures”. The word “people” means that this question is not asking us to determine whether individuals within a culture are savages or not. It goes further, clarifying its savage vs. civilized statement as applying specifically to cultures, again steering away from individuals. The question basically asks “can cultures be divided into savage or civilized ones?” You definitely seem to think so, but simply disagree with the wording of the question. What it seems like you have done with this question is nitpick a semantic point in order to justify giving yourself a less authoritarian score. I completely agree with every point in your justification for giving the opposite conclusion that I have drawn. I tick disagree. There ARE savage peoples and civilized ones, but savage and civilized _persons_ are not predisposed according to ethnicity. It’s been awhile since I’ve done the entire compass. My coordinates were somewhere around +3, -5, but I forget the exact numbers. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/42 "2004-08-23T13:33:17Z")
> [@](#): > > What it seems like you have done with this question is nitpick a semantic point in order to justify giving yourself a less authoritarian score. I can assure you that I always seek to respond as honestly as possible to the proposition as it stands, with minimal caveats or strained interpretations, just so that I end up with the score I think is appropriate. But, yes, if ‘peoples’ and ‘cultures’ are equivalent here (such that two different cultures might even encompass the same _individual people_, such as 1960’s culture vs. 1980’s culture in the same country, say) then I’m prepared to change my response to _Disagree_ and accept any accompanying northwards nudge. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/43 "2004-08-23T13:34:40Z")
_Erratum_: with minimal caveats or strained interpretations, **rather than respond** just so that I end up with the score I think is appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/44 "2004-08-23T13:44:40Z")
i guess my personal hangup is with the words “civilized” and “savage”. i definitely feel justified using my own moral code to justify my condemnation of rape, murder, torture, etc. after all, what else could i do? however, the question seems to me to ask whether we feel justified claiming either that our culture is the most superior one there can be, or that we can look at all cultures from an absolute perspective and say, “yes, i like this one better.” if i wouldn’t try to convince someone that my morality is the correct one, i wouldn’t follow it very emphatically, would i? so yes, i’d be happy to tell these so-called savage cultures that what they’re doing is wrong (“and here’s why…”), but i still lack the absolute perspective necessary to condemn them absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/45 "2004-08-24T01:28:57Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Then that argument cuts both ways, and thus ends up going nowhere. Surely it is “just _our_ culture” to label their culture ‘savage’ and intervene (forcibly if necessary) in an attempt to civilise it? Well, yeah. Actually, it’s not just our culture-- most cultures think the others are uncouth, uncivilized, or even evil. > [@](#): > > It is altogether too easy a cop out, I feel, to watch a man murder another in order to acquire his wife, or a woman stoned to death at the whim of a mob, and blandly state that there is no universal morality: _of course_ there isn’t, just as logic is not a universal epistemology, nor English a universal language. We must _agree_ to a logical discourse in a commonly understood language, since babbling nonsense at each other will not be useful at all. Similarly, we _could_ refuse to agree a morality even as simple as “torture of innocents is wrong”, but such a debate would get us precisely nowhere. And where, exactly, would agreeing to lable them as “savages” get us? > [@](#): > > Let us discuss, in English, a _reasonable_ human morality, just as I _would_ with those aliens. I cannot. While my personal wish would be that all people around the world would be kind to one another, generous with the poor, respectful of the environment, and have no predjudices based on skin color, religion or sex, it’s not going to happen. The fact is that we can’t impose a single moral code on all cultures, just as we could not issue a world-wide rule on what color shoes people can wear. Both of those ideas are equally ridiculous, in my opinion. Making one up would be an exercize in futility, because anyone with a passing familiarity with anthropology will tell you that there is not a _single universal taboo._ How on God’s green earth can you make up a unified moral code when there is not one single thing which every culture agrees is wrong? > [@](#): > > (And I feel it _would_ be entirely fair for them to ask me to justify my culture - if we cannot justify our own actions and philosophy, we are effectively retarded psychopaths of diminished responsibility **ourselves**. Sure, we can justify our _personal_ actions . . . by saying that _in our culture, such practices are accepted._ But when it comes to our cultural rituals, ceremonies, practices and beliefs, there is no justification. There never can be. Culture is not based on some sort of lofty, independant, concrete reason or philosphy in which all have agreed to take as a basis. Each culture developed its aspects over long periods of time in which various problems that cropped up were dealt with in the fashion which seemed best to that particular group. The Muslims stone an adulteress. The Pilgrims would have made her wear a red letter. Modern Americans send her to \*Jerry Springer. \* Au chaque ses propres. > [@](#): > > In any case, this demand for justification, even under the threat of ‘civilising colonisation’ after their judgement of us, would simply be _their_ ‘culture’!) Uh huh. What’s your point? > [@](#): > > If we flee the arena and refuse to label rape and murder ‘savage’, why then, are we not just _animals_? Well, yeah, we are animals. We’re animals with a sophisticated social structure, with elaborate customs and rituals governing our behavior which vary widely from group to group. There is no more intristic value to one set of the rules than another. I don’t think it’s fleeing the arena in any way to accept cultural relativism: it’s looking at the world, making an effort to see things from other points of view. To judge cultures is to refuse to remove the “lens” of your own culture when examining issues, and is insenstive to other viewpoints. All that this sort of stance accomplishes is raising bad feelings on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/46 "2004-08-24T03:18:15Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > The fact is that we can’t impose a single moral code on all cultures, just as we could not issue a world-wide rule on what color shoes people can wear. Both of those ideas are equally ridiculous, in my opinion. Making one up would be an exercize in futility, because anyone with a passing familiarity with anthropology will tell you that there is not a single universal taboo. How on God’s green earth can you make up a unified moral code when there is not one single thing which every culture agrees is wrong? Well, actually we (the western world) COULD certainly impose a single more code on all cultures if we wished too. But thats not the point. We can certainly JUDGE though. Why the hell not? They are free to judge us, and you are deluding yourself if you think they don’t. I’m sorry, but you are simply wrong…AND you are taking this politically correct crap too far IMHO. If a ‘culture’ does monsterous things they should be judged as monsterous. Perhaps they shouldn’t be force-ably changed (but then again, perhaps they SHOULD be) but its wrong NOT to judge them. The Nazi’s were monsterous…they were ‘savage’. Should the rest of the world just stand by and go ‘oh well…its their culture. We shouldn’t judge’…? Bullshit. In certain Africian nations women are given female circumcisions. Should we just stand by without judging them and just let this go on without at least showing our distaste? If we did that nothing would ever change. The fact we DID do this is the only reason things are slowly changing there. In China they used to bind women’s feet. One of the primary reasons this changed was because the Chinese figured out we thought they were barbarians for crippling women this way. Slavery was once legal in the US…one of the primary reasons for ending it was the fact that Europe had already done so and considered the US to be barbarians for continueing to do so. South Africia was…well, you get the point I’m sure. > [@Lissa](#): > > And where, exactly, would agreeing to lable them as “savages” get us? As my above examples illustrate, shame can be a great motivator for social change…and it costs nothing. If a culture is comfortable with itself being outside of the norm and looked down upon by the world community then thats fine. I’m not saying we send in the UN (snort) to change, say, the North Koreans habit of starving their people to death, or the Africans perchance for cutting of the clits of women…just a little shame and perhaps in time some social change. Whats so hard? Certainly there are aspects of any culture that are different from the norm, and I’m not advocating that we all become mono-cultural. But certain cultures exhibit traits or behaviors that are beyond the pale…and those cultures should certainly be labled for what they are…savage. I’m starting to change my mind about my answer listening to some of these posts…I’m starting to lean more heavily to strongly disagreement with the OP. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/47 "2004-08-24T05:53:12Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, actually we (the western world) COULD certainly impose a single more code on all cultures if we wished too. And how would we accomplish this, pray tell? Wars are expensive, and we can’t even get Americans all that interested in intervening in foriegn countries because of _genocide_. What makes you think that people will want to go to war to impose Western morality? > [@](#): > > But thats not the point. We can certainly JUDGE though. Why the hell not? Sure, we can judge. It’s fun to feel superior. > [@](#): > > They are free to judge us, and you are deluding yourself if you think they don’t. I just said in my last post that judging or looking down on other cultures is almost universal. _Everybody_ thinks its fun. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but you are simply wrong…AND you are taking this politically correct crap too far IMHO. Politically correct? I’ve been acused of many things, but that’s not one of them. My stance has nothing to do with my politics, nor do my _personal_ opinions have anything to do with the issue. Personally, the practices of some cultures disgust me, but I can put aside my emotional reactions to look at things logically. > [@](#): > > If a ‘culture’ does monsterous things they should be judged as monsterous. Perhaps they shouldn’t be force-ably changed (but then again, perhaps they SHOULD be) but its wrong NOT to judge them. The Nazi’s were monsterous…they were ‘savage’. Should the rest of the world just stand by and go ‘oh well…its their culture. We shouldn’t judge’…? Bullshit. Well, that’s what we did for a long time. Until we were attacked by Japan, we stood by idly while the Nazis slaughtered the Jews. We knew it was happening. We did nothing. Had we not been attacked, we probably never would have done anything about it. We are certainly not the high-and-mighty arbiters of moral justice. Our culture has things of which it should be deeply ashamed. How harshly should other cultures judge us for this, and shouldn’t they forcibly intervene if need be to change things? > [@](#): > > In certain Africian nations women are given female circumcisions. Should we just stand by without judging them and just let this go on without at least showing our distaste? Do you really believe that a display of Western “distaste” will end this practice? Has it ever occurred to you that they don’t care what we think? What they care about is what their relatives and neighbors think, and whether or not their daughter will be able to marry well. If being uncircumsized will keep her from getting a “good” husband, no amount of Western preaching will keep them from doing it. What will stop it? Laws won’t-- it would be highly unlikely such laws would be passed, and if they were, they would be ignored by most since the practice is so deeply ingrained within the culture. Nor will the interference by Westerners who have little (in the opinion of those who practice FGM) to back up their objections other than squeamishness. FGM is not a religiously mandated practice, but a cultural one, so, unless religious leaders speak out against it in vehement tones–which is highly unlikely-- it will continue. The reality is that FGM will continue to be practiced as long as those cultures _want_ to practice it. Most likely, it will be slowly phased out over the next 50 to 100 years as those societies become more secularized. Many cultural practices are slowly fading in that manner, such as lip-plating. > [@](#): > > If we did that nothing would ever change. The fact we DID do this is the only reason things are slowly changing there. Really? I hadn’t heard that enormous progress had been made in convincing these people to abandon their cultural practices just because Westerners told them to do so. If things are changing much, it’s because of overall cultural secularization, not because of overt interference, which actually tends to offend and alienate, rather than convert. > [@](#): > > In China they used to bind women’s feet. One of the primary reasons this changed was because the Chinese figured out we thought they were barbarians for crippling women this way. Western women wore rib-crushing corsets up 'til the early 1900s. Modern women wear high-heeled shoes which deform the feet, and some go as far as having foot bones removed to wear them. We put braces on the crooked teeth of children, sometimes purely for cosmetic reasons, or have their ears “pinned” back if they stick out too far. What’s the difference, really? A woman who has a boob job is caving in to societal pressure to conform to a certain ideal of beauty, just as Chinese women tried to live up to the ideal of the 3 inch Golden Lotus. Remember, too, that foreign opinion was only part of the reason: Mao’s Cultural Revolution wanted to destroy the bourgoise lifestyle, and nothing screams “indolent rich” like a woman who cannot work because her feet are too tiny. > [@](#): > > Slavery was once legal in the US…one of the primary reasons for ending it was the fact that Europe had already done so and considered the US to be barbarians for continueing to do so. South Africia was…well, you get the point I’m sure. Negative opinion from abroad might have been one of the points involved in the eventual abolishment of slavery, but it certainly wasn’t one of the primary motivating factors. Dissaproval from the world community alone is not enough to bring down a cultural practice. There are many, many issues which bring about societal change. Right now, millions of people around the world curse the name of George W. Bush. Will that change how you vote? > [@](#): > > As my above examples illustrate, shame can be a great motivator for social change…and it costs nothing. If a culture is comfortable with itself being outside of the norm and looked down upon by the world community then thats fine. Well, it would be, if it worked. But really, it just makes us look like xenophobic, unenlightened, imperious clods. I have a neighbor like that. I tell her to mind her own goddam business. Which is what (more politely phrased, of course) we tell other countries when they point to our barbarous habit of putting criminals to death. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying we send in the UN (snort) to change, say, the North Koreans habit of starving their people to death, or the Africans perchance for cutting of the clits of women…just a little shame and perhaps in time some social change. Whats so hard? Making them care that we dissaprove, for one. We’ve amply demonstrated during the current Administration that we don’t give a shit what the rest of the world thinks about our actions . . . why do you think other nations would be different? It’s not like our dissaproval will mean anything _tangible_ for them. American companies will still build factories there for cheap labor, Pepsi will still make deliveries, and they’ll still get to send athletes to the Olympics (assuming they’re interested in doing so.) > [@](#): > > Certainly there are aspects of any culture that are different from the norm, and I’m not advocating that we all become mono-cultural. But certain cultures exhibit traits or behaviors that are beyond the pale…and those cultures should certainly be labled for what they are…savage. Look, we can’t even agree in this country which of our practices are “savage”. Just do a board search for “abortion” or “the death penalty.” Perhaps we should take a _good, hard_ look at our own culture before we start berating other peoples for their “savagery”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/48 "2004-08-24T07:15:25Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > And how would we accomplish this, pray tell? Wars are expensive, and we can’t even get Americans all that interested in intervening in foriegn countries because of genocide. What makes you think that people will want to go to war to impose Western morality? I said we COULD…not that we SHOULD. Of course we could if we really wanted too (note, I said the WESTERN WORLD…not America). > [@Lissa](#): > > Sure, we can judge. It’s fun to feel superior. I’m sure it is fun for you to feel superior to the other people in this thread argueing with you. You can feel OH so superior to us cavemen with our outmoded way of looking at the world. Lucky for you that you live here where its just an intellectual excersize for you to amuse yourself with, ehe? > [@Lissa](#): > > I just said in my last post that judging or looking down on other cultures is almost universal. Everybody thinks its fun. Thats very true…all cultures do this. But there is a basic level of behavior accepted in the modern world. THATS what I’m talking about. > [@Lissa](#): > > Politically correct? I’ve been acused of many things, but that’s not one of them. My stance has nothing to do with my politics, nor do my personal opinions have anything to do with the issue. Personally, the practices of some cultures disgust me, but I can put aside my emotional reactions to look at things logically. Well, now you’ve been accused of being PC…something new in your life today. BTW, being PC has nothing to do with politics, per se. I’m glad you are able to put aside your emotional reactions and look at things logically. Isn’t it nice that you live in a place that gives you that luxury? Isn’t it nice that you seemingly haven’t even had to VISIT such places where the reality is a bit different. I wish I could be like you…born in such a place and never had to see grim reality. Unfortunately no all of us are so lucky. > [@Lissa](#): > > Well, that’s what we did for a long time. Until we were attacked by Japan, we stood by idly while the Nazis slaughtered the Jews. We knew it was happening. We did nothing. Had we not been attacked, we probably never would have done anything about it. I call bullshit. You have a cite that we KNEW the Nazis were slaughtering Jews long before we entered the war? Because to the best of my knowledge the US didn’t KNOW such things (or even believe them) until pretty late in the game. > [@Lissa](#): > > We are certainly not the high-and-mighty arbiters of moral justice. Our culture has things of which it should be deeply ashamed. How harshly should other cultures judge us for this, and shouldn’t they forcibly intervene if need be to change things? You seem to have a very US-centric view of the world. Whats all this ‘we’? I’m talking about basic standards of behavior…ACCEPTED standards that have developed over the past century or so and continue to evolve. The US’s standards are slightly different than Europes, which are different than those in say Japan and Korea…but there are some universals there that comprise acceptable behaviors. THATS what I’m talking about. Sure, ALL cultures have done bad things in the past…that doesn’t excuse cultures now from doing bad things. Because Europe USED to do bad things doesn’t excuse Africa from doing bad things NOW. Because America USED to do bad things doesn’t excuse North Korea today. As to forcibly intervening…did you actually read what I said? I never advocated that. I said we could JUDGE…not that we must change cultures we find ‘savage’ through superior firepower. > [@Lissa](#): > > Do you really believe that a display of Western “distaste” will end this practice? Has it ever occurred to you that they don’t care what we think? What they care about is what their relatives and neighbors think, and whether or not their daughter will be able to marry well. If being uncircumsized will keep her from getting a “good” husband, no amount of Western preaching will keep them from doing it. Ya, I really believe this…because you can see it happening already. Its slow, but its happening (just like my other examples). Have you ever actually BEEN to Africa? I doubt it. Has it ever occured to you that maybe they DO care what the rest of the world thinks of them?? That they don’t WANT to be thought ‘barbarians’? That when the rest of the world looks down on certain practices that it makes them re-look and re-think some of the things that have always been traditional, and re-evaluate them in their lives? Again, I doubt it ever occured to you. Did you know that the women themselves are starting to rise (albiet slowly) up against this and other practices (like being ‘dry’, and other nausiating practices)? If you knew this, why do you suppose its happening NOW after generations of tradition? > [@Lissa](#): > > The reality is that FGM will continue to be practiced as long as those cultures want to practice it. Most likely, it will be slowly phased out over the next 50 to 100 years as those societies become more secularized. Many cultural practices are slowly fading in that manner, such as lip-plating. Certainly it will continue indefinitely if we all take a non-judgemental view and simply let they do their own thing. Then you can smugly sit back and be superior and accepting while such things go on…doesn’t effect you after all, right? Its good to be born an American… > [@Lissa](#): > > Really? I hadn’t heard that enormous progress had been made in convincing these people to abandon their cultural practices just because Westerners told them to do so. Try studying history…might help some. Look up the practice of Chinese foot binding and look at the root cause for why they don’t do this anymore. Sure there were other factors…but this was certainly one of them. I’m not saying that every culture will cave into western ways and become little models of western culture…that wouldn’t be a good thing IMO. Cultural diversity is a GOOD thing IMHO. However, we are talking about BASIC levels of behavior here. > [@Lissa](#): > > If things are changing much, it’s because of overall cultural secularization, not because of overt interference, which actually tends to offend and alienate, rather than convert. Who said anything about ‘overt interference’?? You aren’t getting this, are you? > [@Lissa](#): > > Western women wore rib-crushing corsets up 'til the early 1900s. Modern women wear high-heeled shoes which deform the feet, and some go as far as having foot bones removed to wear them. We put braces on the crooked teeth of children, sometimes purely for cosmetic reasons, or have their ears “pinned” back if they stick out too far. What’s the difference, really? Thats right, they did…until womens rights came about. Western culture and behavior EVOLVED…it didn’t just spring up from the ground. The NAZIS were part of ‘western culture’ and still animals…and that was less than a century ago. As to the rest, are you REALLY equating braces and high heals with female circumcision and foot binding? Its really all the same to you? > [@Lissa](#): > > Negative opinion from abroad might have been one of the points involved in the eventual abolishment of slavery, but it certainly wasn’t one of the primary motivating factors. > > Dissaproval from the world community alone is not enough to bring down a cultural practice. There are many, many issues which bring about societal change. Right now, millions of people around the world curse the name of George W. Bush. Will that change how you vote? I never said it was the ONLY factor…only that it IS a factor. Well, it MIGHT bring Bush down, and its certainly a huge factor in may peoples decision of whether or not to vote for him. But Bush isn’t exactly the same thing as what we are talking about (unless you are REALLY a rabid anti-Bush fan). > [@Lissa](#): > > Well, it would be, if it worked. But really, it just makes us look like xenophobic, unenlightened, imperious clods. Well, it DOES work. But really, the converse makes ‘us’ look like bubble headed idealist who are smugly superior and clueless about the pain and suffering inflicted on our fellow man, because, you know, its only their culture…must not judge. Are we done with insults now or did you want to go on with them? > [@Lissa](#): > > I have a neighbor like that. I tell her to mind her own goddam business. Which is what (more politely phrased, of course) we tell other countries when they point to our barbarous habit of putting criminals to death. And if your neighbor was torturing her children you’d just look over dispasionately and blow it off…she is only doing her own thing after all. Asserting her religion or her ‘culture’ or whatever buzz word you wished to use…no worries, be happy. Don’t judge her Lissa…you haven’t walked a mile in her shoes after all. Maybe she really NEEDS to torture those children… > [@Lissa](#): > > Making them care that we dissaprove, for one. We’ve amply demonstrated during the current Administration that we don’t give a shit what the rest of the world thinks about our actions . . . why do you think other nations would be different? It’s not like our dissaproval will mean anything tangible for them. American companies will still build factories there for cheap labor, Pepsi will still make deliveries, and they’ll still get to send athletes to the Olympics (assuming they’re interested in doing so.) Again, you have a very US-centric perspective. I hate to break this to you, but the US doesn’t comprise the totality of western culture or thought. Its certainly a part of it, but thats all…just a part. However, to answer your US-centric question…of COURSE our disapproval means something. If nothing else we wield huge financial clubs against peoples we disapprove of. And I’m not just talking about the government. Our PEOPLE wield a huge stick…when they choose to use it. Look at the misguided ire directed at the French. It cost them literally billions simply because they ticked off the American people. Even taking away the financial aspect though, our opinion actually does matter out there in the wider world…just like Europes opinion matters, and Japans matters. You’d be surprised. Try traveling more. > [@Lissa](#): > > Look, we can’t even agree in this country which of our practices are “savage”. Just do a board search for “abortion” or “the death penalty.” Western culture is an evolutionary process Lissa…it continues to change and modify. Capital punishment may be the next thing to change in the US (like abortion already has for the most part, and gay marriage is starting too)…and one of the reasons it may change is BECAUSE so much of the western world is currently against it. Its a subtle pressure, and if it continues long enough I don’t doubt there will be a change. You seem to think I’m talking about instant change here. This process takes time…but in the end it does have an effect. > [@Lissa](#): > > Perhaps we should take a good, hard look at our own culture before we start berating other peoples for their “savagery”. We already DO that Lissa…we are some of the most critical and introspective people on the face of the earth (really all western societies are, to a greater or lesser extent…it comes partly with a free press). We are constantly re-evaluating our culture and our behavior…and constantly criticizing it. Perhaps some of those savage cultures should re-evaluatate THERE behavior and try and conform more to some basic and accepted standards, hm? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/49 "2004-08-24T07:37:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Ya, I really believe this…because you can see it happening already. Its slow, but its happening (just like my other examples). Have you ever actually BEEN to Africa? I doubt it. Has it ever occured to you that maybe they DO care what the rest of the world thinks of them?? That they don’t WANT to be thought ‘barbarians’? That when the rest of the world looks down on certain practices that it makes them re-look and re-think some of the things that have always been traditional, and re-evaluate them in their lives? Again, I doubt it ever occured to you. > > Did you know that the women themselves are starting to rise (albiet slowly) up against this and other practices (like being ‘dry’, and other nausiating practices)? If you knew this, why do you suppose its happening NOW after generations of tradition? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I do know women who were subjected to FGM. Luckily, this practice it is becoming increasingly uncommon. But as far as I know this has nothing to do with Africans being ashamed of what the “civilized” West might think of their “savage” ways. Going in on a white charger and telling people that their cultural practices are sickening is unlikely to motivate them to change, even if it’s true. This is far more likely to make people feel defensive, and resentful towards the foreigners trying to tell them what to do. One thing that has been effective in decreasing FGM has been explaining to people that the practice is, from an objective medical standpoint, dangerous for both the woman and her future potential offspring. This is information many societies that practice FGM did not have access to before, but now that they do a lot of them are rethinking the whole thing. Also, some girls are now delaying the ritual because they want to finish high school (or maybe even go to college!) before they get put on the marriage market. And a girl with more exposure to education and more knowledge of the world outside her own village is more likely to decide on her own that she doesn’t want to go through with FGM. But telling people to their faces that they’re savages from an uncivilized culture doesn’t seem very likely to produce positive change to me. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/50 "2004-08-24T09:52:51Z")
> [@](#): > > **Lissa** And where, exactly, would agreeing to lable them as “savages” get us? I explicitly did _nnot_ advocate labelling the people _themselves_ as “savages”. I proposed that certain **actions** such as murder and rape were “savage” and should be minimised. > [@](#): > > I cannot [discuss a reasonable human morality] Well, errr…goodbye? > [@](#): > > The fact is that we can’t impose a single moral code on all cultures Ah, but we _could_. We could march in and judge a culture as engendering savage violations and practises which are the antithesis of civilisation and propose all kinds of carrots and sticks to encourage their extinction. Heck, we could even do the same by outright _genocide_. And it would not be wrong because, according to cultural relativism, there’s no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/51 "2004-08-24T10:26:52Z")
> [@](#): > > I can put aside my emotional reactions to look at things logically. Note that logic is not a universal epistemology, just as rape and murder are not universal taboos. We must _agree_ on a relevant epistemology or morality before we can usefully proceed by stepping into the arena. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/52 "2004-08-24T15:18:40Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Perhaps we should take a good, hard look at our own culture before we start berating other peoples for their “savagery”. Nonsense, there’s no need to do anything of the sort. _Anything_ a culture chooses to do is just as valid as anything else. And no one from outside that culture has any right to judge the actions of another culture as “right” or “wrong” or “barbaric” or anything else. Therefore, if we decide it is part of our culture to deny women the vote, execute criminals, enslave blacks, or invade other nations and subjugate them at gunpoint, that is just part of our culture. Right? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/53 "2004-08-24T22:32:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’m sure it is fun for you to feel superior to the other people in this thread argueing with you. You can feel OH so superior to us cavemen with our outmoded way of looking at the world. Lucky for you that you live here where its just an intellectual excersize for you to amuse yourself with, ehe? I made no claims as to my superiority, and I know I’m vastly lucky to live here in the US. As mouthy as I am, I would have been stoned to death long ago if I lived in another culture, or burned as a witch. > [@](#): > > Thats very true…all cultures do this. But there is a basic level of behavior accepted in the modern world. THATS what I’m talking about. There is? Since when? > [@](#): > > I’m glad you are able to put aside your emotional reactions and look at things logically. Isn’t it nice that you live in a place that gives you that luxury? Hell, yes. > [@](#): > > Isn’t it nice that you seemingly haven’t even had to VISIT such places where the reality is a bit different. Well, actually, I have, but that’s much besides the point. > [@](#): > > I wish I could be like you…born in such a place and never had to see grim reality. Unfortunately no all of us are so lucky. I have never seen a person burned alive or stoned to death, sure, but I’m no wide-eyed innocent. I am quite aware of the horrors of human suffering. > [@](#): > > I call bullshit. You have a cite that we KNEW the Nazis were slaughtering Jews long before we entered the war? Because to the best of my knowledge the US didn’t KNOW such things (or even believe them) until pretty late in the game. This [book](http://www.remember.org/secrets/) has some interesting information: > [@](#): > > The United States, like Great Britain, was in a favorable position to get information about Nazi secret crimes, but not with high technology. Technically neutral in the war until December 1941, the United States had reporters and diplomats in Germany during the first wave of the Holocaust. Even if they had nothing so revealing as the German police decodes, American observers could pick up substantial information about Nazi measures against Jews from public sources, insiders within the regime, and opponents of it. Some of this information reached the American government and the public, but little of it was broadcast to Nazi-controlled Europe, even after Pearl Harbor and America’s entrance in the war. > > \ > Following Germany’s invasion of the U.S.S.R., the Jewish-American press was, in general, quick off the mark. Yiddish newspapers in New York City reported in July 1941 that the Nazis had killed hundreds of Jews in Minsk, Brest-Litovsk, Lvov, and elsewhere. The Yiddish press had a circulation of about four hundred thousand, more than half of which was in New York City. > > \ > > American reporters also wrote extensively about the deportations of Jews from Germany; some even witnessed early departures of Jews crammed into railcars. The destination of German Jews was said at first to be ghettos or camps in Poland, not the Soviet territories. At the end of October, Louis P. Lochner, the Associated Press’s senior German correspondent, wrote that total elimination of Jews from European life was “fixed German policy” and that the fate of Jewish deportees from Germany was unknown. When the New York Herald Tribune carried a story in late November 1941 about the condition of Jews in the Soviet territories, it accepted the accuracy of reported deportations (for example, twenty thousand Jews sent into the Pinsk marshes) but was noncommittal about more extreme measures: “some reports received here from Central Europe speak of massacres of Jews by Germans.” This was the beginning of a trend in the mainstream American press of treating reports of mass killings of Jews skeptically. Another [cite.](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/02/national/main299399.shtml) [This one says:](http://www.bulldognews.net/issues_holocaust.html) > [@](#): > > Although no one could imagine its end result, all Americans were well aware of Nazi anti-Semitism from the regime’s beginning in 1933, if not earlier. > Prewar Nazi actions against Jews, from early discriminatory measures to the enactment of the Nuremberg Laws in 1935 and culminating in Kristallnacht in 1938, were widely reported in the American press and repeatedly denounced at all levels of American society. > > \ > Thus in December 1939 a press agency first estimated that a quarter of a million Jews had been killed; two weeks later the agency reported that losses were about one tenth that number. (Similar wildly differing estimates recurred throughout the war, no doubt leading many to suspend judgment on the facts and suspect exaggeration. The information was out there. Few people paid attention, however. Just like the slaughters going on right now. > [@](#): > > You seem to have a very US-centric view of the world. This actually made me laugh. > [@](#): > > Whats all this ‘we’? I’m talking about basic standards of behavior…ACCEPTED standards that have developed over the past century or so and continue to evolve. The US’s standards are slightly different than Europes, which are different than those in say Japan and Korea…but there are some universals there that comprise acceptable behaviors. And I pointed out that there is not a single universal taboo. How can there be “accepted standards” if there is not one single thing which all cultures agree is “wrong?” > [@](#): > > THATS what I’m talking about. Sure, ALL cultures have done bad things in the past…that doesn’t excuse cultures now from doing bad things. Because Europe USED to do bad things doesn’t excuse Africa from doing bad things NOW. Because America USED to do bad things doesn’t excuse North Korea today. But first you have to define what is “bad”. You’d be hard pressed to explain to someone who has always been taught that a certain action is “right” that, no, actually they’ve been “wrong” their entire lives, and so has their entire culture, down through the ages. > [@](#): > > As to forcibly intervening…did you actually read what I said? I never advocated that. I said we could JUDGE…not that we must change cultures we find ‘savage’ through superior firepower. And I asked what judging accomplished. Nothing but stirring up bad feelings, cementing cultural superiority in some people’s minds, and making the other side think we’re jerks. > [@](#): > > Ya, I really believe this…because you can see it happening already. Its slow, but its happening (just like my other examples). Have you ever actually BEEN to Africa? I doubt it. Does safari count? Probably not. But, anyway, what does it matter if I’ve been there? I’ve never had a child, but I can understand that childbirth hurts like hell. > [@](#): > > Has it ever occured to you that maybe they DO care what the rest of the world thinks of them?? That they don’t WANT to be thought ‘barbarians’? That when the rest of the world looks down on certain practices that it makes them re-look and re-think some of the things that have always been traditional, and re-evaluate them in their lives? Again, I doubt it ever occured to you. Sure, it’s occurred to me. I’m not as dim as I may seem. But, mulling over the idea, a couple of things occurred to me that might be in the mind of the “barbarian”: The “barbarian” has to accept that their culture is “wrong.” Not as easy as it sounds, especially when they’ve known nothing else. To them, what if the rest of the world is “wrong,” and they are “right?” Secondly, it sometimes takes a while to explain _why_ an action is wrong in Western eyes, and it may simply boil down to simple _opinion._ Third, to someone in a third-world villiage, somewhat cut-off from civilization, the opinion of people six thousand miles away–people whom they will never meet-- seems somewhat irrelevant, especially if the person has been taught that Westerners are decadent, wicked . . . well, _savages._ > [@](#): > > Did you know that the women themselves are starting to rise (albiet slowly) up against this and other practices (like being ‘dry’, and other nausiating practices)? If you knew this, why do you suppose its happening NOW after generations of tradition? It’s happening because more and more cultures are moving away from religion and famiy centered lives to more secular outlooks. Their cultures are slowly evolving. Change is inevitable in cultures. However, I don’t give Western overt actions or pressure much credit. It’s something which a society must decide to do themselves. You cannot force cultural change, unless you conquer a people and force them to your will, and even then, cultures have a pesky way of going underground and surviving oppression. [quote] Certainly it will continue indefinitely if we all take a non-judgemental view and simply let they do their own thing. Then you can smugly sit back and be superior and accepting while such things go on…doesn’t effect you after all, right? Its good to be born an American… > [@](#): > > Try studying history…might help some. Perhaps. Since I make my living as a historian, I’m sure the resources are handy. > [@](#): > > Look up the practice of Chinese foot binding and look at the root cause for why they don’t do this anymore. Sure there were other factors…but this was certainly one of them. Sure. Events and changes never happen for just one reason alone. I wouldn’t give Mao much credit for this, either. It would have been better for the women of that age if the practice had been allowed to slowly die out as it eventually would have done, because the women suffered unbearably when their feet were unbound. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying that every culture will cave into western ways and become little models of western culture…that wouldn’t be a good thing IMO. Cultural diversity is a GOOD thing IMHO. However, we are talking about BASIC levels of behavior here. But, as I said before, and will probably end up saying again and again: there are no universally accepted “wrongs.” So, this basic code of behavior cannot, and does not exist. > [@](#): > > Who said anything about ‘overt interference’?? You aren’t getting this, are you? I suppose not. > [@](#): > > Thats right, they did…until womens rights came about. Western culture and behavior EVOLVED…it didn’t just spring up from the ground. The NAZIS were part of ‘western culture’ and still animals…and that was less than a century ago. Yep. Cultures change. Exactly what I’ve been saying. > [@](#): > > As to the rest, are you REALLY equating braces and high heals with female circumcision and foot binding? Its really all the same to you? Pretty much, honestly. Scarification, piercings, lip-plating, boob jobs, foot binding, enlongating necks with rings, and the custom of pressing boards to babies’ heads to shape their skulls all have the same goal-- altering the form to live up to the feminine ideal. Some are more painful than others. Some (especially FGM because of our cultural emphasis on women’s right to enjoy sex) seem more abhorent than others to Western minds, but, really, they’re all pretty much the same thing. > [@](#): > > Well, it MIGHT bring Bush down, and its certainly a huge factor in may peoples decision of whether or not to vote for him. But Bush isn’t exactly the same thing as what we are talking about (unless you are REALLY a rabid anti-Bush fan). Only in those who wanted him gone anyway. I have yet to meet a single Bush voter who said, “Well, because people hate him around the world, I guess I’ll have to vote for Kerry.” This further underlines my point: things will change when the people wish them to, not before, no matter the amount of cajoling from other nations or cultures. > [@](#): > > Well, it DOES work. But really, the converse makes ‘us’ look like bubble headed idealist who are smugly superior and clueless about the pain and suffering inflicted on our fellow man, because, you know, its only their culture…must not judge. Sweeite, I’m extremely sensitive to other people’s pain. Hell, every time I go to a funeral, I cry, even if I didn’t know the deceased, because just seeing the family weeping is agonizing for me. It’s very hard for me to watch documentaries on the subjects we’ve been discussing, because I start bawling. I’m a softie. But, again, my _personal_ feelings about footbinding, FGM, honor killings, and just plain old cruelty, is not the point. I _KNOW_ my fellow man suffers. I hate it to the depths of my being. I wish there was something that could be done about it, but there’s not. People will always suffer unspeakable horrors and indescribable agonies. It shreds my heart, but there’s no way of changing that. > [@](#): > > Are we done with insults now or did you want to go on with them? Why on earth would you think that was directed at you? > [@](#): > > And if your neighbor was torturing her children you’d just look over dispasionately and blow it off…she is only doing her own thing after all. Asserting her religion or her ‘culture’ or whatever buzz word you wished to use…no worries, be happy. Don’t judge her Lissa…you haven’t walked a mile in her shoes after all. Maybe she really NEEDS to torture those children… Oh, come on. Please. That woman lives in our American culture. In our American culture, we have declared it illegal to torture children. She is subject to those rules by living on our soil. I’d call the cops. > [@](#): > > Again, you have a very US-centric perspective. I hate to break this to you, but the US doesn’t comprise the totality of western culture or thought. Uh huh. I know. But we are in the US, and thus subject to its cultural variations. The culture in which a person is raised colors their viewpoints on almost every isse. We look at the world through the “lens” of our own culture, judging it accordingly. If I use the US as my example, it’s for that reason. > [@](#): > > However, to answer your US-centric question…of COURSE our disapproval means something. If nothing else we wield huge financial clubs against peoples we disapprove of. It would be foohardy to do so, damaging to our economy, and potentially disruptive to our way of life. Let’s say, for example, we decided that we would no longer do business with any country that allows women to die in “honor killings.” There goes our oil. There goes a market for American products and technology. Now, we have a new enemy. (Or at least an open one.) > [@](#): > > And I’m not just talking about the government. Our PEOPLE wield a huge stick…when they choose to use it. Look at the misguided ire directed at the French. It cost them literally billions simply because they ticked off the American people. Try asking at your gas station tomorrow for American-made gasoline. > [@](#): > > Even taking away the financial aspect though, our opinion actually does matter out there in the wider world…just like Europes opinion matters, and Japans matters. You’d be surprised. Try traveling more. This condescending attitude is very insulting. You don’t know a goddam thing about me. For your information, I have travelled quite extensively, as if it’s any of your business. Sorry to get so snippy, but this really made me angry. > [@](#): > > Western culture is an evolutionary process Lissa…it continues to change and modify. Capital punishment may be the next thing to change in the US (like abortion already has for the most part, and gay marriage is starting too)…and one of the reasons it may change is BECAUSE so much of the western world is currently against it. Its a subtle pressure, and if it continues long enough I don’t doubt there will be a change. You seem to think I’m talking about instant change here. This process takes time…but in the end it does have an effect. As I said, things change when the people wish it. Laws follow society, and society changes due to many influences, or, in reaction to major events. Outside pressure doesn’t always have positive effects. > [@](#): > > We already DO that Lissa…we are some of the most critical and introspective people on the face of the earth (really all western societies are, to a greater or lesser extent…it comes partly with a free press). We are constantly re-evaluating our culture and our behavior…and constantly criticizing it. Perhaps some of those savage cultures should re-evaluatate THERE behavior and try and conform more to some basic and accepted standards, hm? > > -XT Sure. If there _were_ any basic and accepted standards. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/54 "2004-08-24T23:16:35Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Pretty much, honestly. Scarification, piercings, lip-plating, boob jobs, foot binding, enlongating necks with rings, and the custom of pressing boards to babies’ heads to shape their skulls all have the same goal-- altering the form to live up to the feminine ideal. Some are more painful than others. Some (especially FGM because of our cultural emphasis on women’s right to enjoy sex) seem more abhorent than others to Western minds, but, really, they’re all pretty much the same thing. That’s just nuts. Let’s take one example: Foot binding. To do this, it is absolutely necessary to begin while the girl is very young-- typically 4 or 5 years old. How can you compare that even to a radical surgical procedure such as a boob job-- something only done on consenting adults? There is a clear distinction that can be made between dramatically altering the body of a minor child and any decision that an adult makes about his/her own body. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/55 "2004-08-25T02:39:57Z")
I said: > [@](#): > > I cannot [discuss a reasonable human morality] SentientMeat replied: > [@SentientMeat](#): > > Well, errr…goodbye? I don’t understand what it is you’re after. Since no such code of behavior exists–nor can exist due to the lack of universal taboos-- did you just want to make up one as an entertaining excersize? An idealized version for the fun of it? What would be the point? > [@Shodan](#): > > Anything a culture chooses to do is just as valid as anything else. And no one from outside that culture has any right to judge the actions of another culture as “right” or “wrong” or “barbaric” or anything else. Therefore, if we decide it is part of our culture to deny women the vote, execute criminals, enslave blacks, or invade other nations and subjugate them at gunpoint, that is just part of our culture. Right? Well, yeah. That’s pretty much what I’ve been saying. We don’t have to _like_ it. In fact, our personal opinions on the matter can be that it’s utterly horrible. All I’m saying is that we do not have the right to judge other cultures based on our own idealized notions of “right” and “wrong” when the same standards do not apply world-wide. > [@John Mace](#): > > That’s just nuts. Let’s take one example: Foot binding. To do this, it is absolutely necessary to begin while the girl is very young-- typically 4 or 5 years old. How can you compare that even to a radical surgical procedure such as a boob job-- something only done on consenting adults? > > There is a clear distinction that can be made between dramatically altering the body of a minor child and any decision that an adult makes about his/her own body. In a lot of cases, there really isn’t much of a choice to be made. Either the child has the procedure done, which allows her to marry well when she grows up, or she is a social outcast. The only problem is that many of these procedures can only be done on a child. Binding the feet, shaping the skull, or stretching the neck are processes which must begin early in life. What’s a loving mother to do? If her daughter is doomed to life as a social outcast unless she has the procedure, she has little choice. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/56 "2004-08-25T07:23:19Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > In a lot of cases, there really isn’t much of a choice to be made. Either the child has the procedure done, which allows her to marry well when she grows up, or she is a social outcast. > > The only problem is that many of these procedures can only be done on a child. Binding the feet, shaping the skull, or stretching the neck are processes which must begin early in life. What’s a loving mother to do? If her daughter is doomed to life as a social outcast unless she has the procedure, she has little choice. You are confusing “can’t marry the most prestigeous man available” with “being a social outcast”. But it doesn’t matter. We’re not talking about one mother’s action here, but the barbaric aspects of a culture which perpetuates this practice. We can condemn that particular practice without condemning the entire culture. There were many positive aspects of Chinese culture throughout the ages. This was not one of them. It isn’t any more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/57 "2004-08-25T08:18:45Z")
> [@](#): > > What would be the point? That we might identify and minimise savage practises such as rape and murder. If that is pointless, well, call me a hobbyist. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/58 "2004-08-25T13:45:49Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > Anything a culture chooses to do is just as valid as anything else. And no one from outside that culture has any right to judge the actions of another culture as “right” or “wrong” or “barbaric” or anything else. Therefore, if we decide it is part of our culture to deny women the vote, execute criminals, enslave blacks, or invade other nations and subjugate them at gunpoint, that is just part of our culture. Right? > > Well, yeah. That’s pretty much what I’ve been saying. We don’t have to _like_ it. In fact, our personal opinions on the matter can be that it’s utterly horrible. All I’m saying is that we do not have the right to judge other cultures based on our own idealized notions of “right” and “wrong” when the same standards do not apply world-wide. Well, at least you are up front about it. Although I will point out that you have forfeited the right to object to colonialism, the Rape of Nanking, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the invasion of Iraq, the war in Viet Nam, the Bataan Death March, the Holocaust, the Trail of Tears and the wars against American Indians, etc. And your suggestion that we look at our own culture as barbaric was meaningless and hypocritical. No grounds exist to judge US culture, either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/59 "2004-08-25T14:17:40Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > That we might identify and minimise savage practises such as rape and murder. If that is pointless, well, call me a hobbyist. But minimization of practices we find objectionable is nigh on to impossible. These sorts of practices will eventually die out on their own due to changes and secularization within the culture, but unless you’re willing to conquer and force the people to change, there’s nothing you can do about it. All that judgements and harsh words suah as “savage” do is raise hostility, defensiveness and distrust in the culture accused. > [@John Mace](#): > > You are confusing “can’t marry the most prestigeous man available” with “being a social outcast”. In the case of foot binding, the practice was so pervasive that most sources say that a woman of any social status beyond that of peasant–and even then I’ve heard from some sources that peasants did the same on a more limited basis-- couldn’t marry at _all_ if her feet were not bound. The smaller the foot, the more value and prestige that a woman had in the marriage market, but a woman with “big” natural feet was simply unmarriagable. > [@](#): > > But it doesn’t matter. We’re not talking about one mother’s action here, but the barbaric aspects of a culture which perpetuates this practice. We can condemn that particular practice without condemning the entire culture. Quite right, and it’s my stance that condemning any culture is unfair from the outset. I simply don’t believe that we have a right to judge. > [@](#): > > There were many positive aspects of Chinese culture throughout the ages. This was not one of them. It isn’t any more complicated than that. Well put. > [@Shodan](#): > > Well, at least you are up front about it. > > Although I will point out that you have forfeited the right to object to colonialism, the Rape of Nanking, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the invasion of Iraq, the war in Viet Nam, the Bataan Death March, the Holocaust, the Trail of Tears and the wars against American Indians, etc. And your suggestion that we look at our own culture as barbaric was meaningless and hypocritical. No grounds exist to judge US culture, either. > > Regards, > Shodan There’s nothing wrong with being critical your own culture. It’s America’s favorite pastime. Now, mind you, I feel it’s unfair to judge those of the past-- the American Indian Holocaust, for example. (And, for the record, I’m partially Native American.) ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221/60 "2004-08-25T14:58:44Z")
> [@](#): > > unless you’re willing to conquer and force the people to change, there’s nothing you can do about it. > > All that judgements and harsh words suah as “savage” do is raise hostility, defensiveness and distrust in the culture accused. So? Is it not just my culture to do so? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-33-political-compass-33-savage-people-vs-different-culture/260221.md?page=4)