# Political Compass #34: Society should not support those who refuse to work. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2004, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395 "2004-08-31T10:08:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Greenback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/2bfe46/32.png) [@Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/21 "2004-08-31T17:35:33Z")
Agree (1.75, -2.36) If the statement gave any indication that the support was indeed temporary, I would have disagreed. But the statement reads **“Those who are able to work, and refuse the opportunity, should not expect society’s support”**. It seems to me that we are dealing with a very specific group of people: People who are able to work and decide that they would rather not. This has nothing to do with mentally ill folks whose concept of reality renders them unable to integrate with the rest of society. I think that everyone should be entitled to a certain standard of living that, as meagre as it would be, provides a place to sleep and nutritious meals\*. However, I think that this should be given on the condition that one provides a service in exchange. This could be anything from digging ditches to working at the local library to data entry. These benefits would not be given to a member of society but, upon applying and being approved to receive these benefits, the member of society becomes an employee of the government. \*On Preview: **John Mace** offered more items to be provided. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/22 "2004-08-31T18:53:28Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I **Agree** , although this is at least partially because of the word “expect”, something other posters don’t seem to have focused on. Very good point. I usually try to make sure I don’t confuse the thread title with the actual proposition and I did this time (as I think most people also did). I change from \*\*Agree \*\* to **Strongly Agree**. I find it repulsive to think that someone could refuse to work and then expect to be supported by society. I strongly encourage everyone to read the proposition carefully and see if you still disagree with it. I don’t see how anyone could. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/23 "2004-09-01T09:46:01Z")
I still disagree, **John** - I try to mirror the propositions in the thread titles as closely as possible but there just isn’t space for every single word. I feel that a citizen of a wealthy democracy can reasonably _expect_ support when unemployed (especially if that society has somehow _contrived_ to keep unemployment a necessary evil) and that, given that unemployment is non-zero even for the willing, refusing those jobs that others snap up instantly is a valid choice (not that _I’d_ make that choice, frugality-_averse_ as I am). I’ll vote for allowing a little _dolce far niente_ in preference to ruthless efficiency in the same way that I accept my taxes being spent on other things I feel are undeserving, such as military, protectionist or road-construction spending, to say nothing of my being “forced” to fund the prevention of crimes I might not _consider_ crimes, let alone ever be a _victim_ of. I am essentially unconvinced by a property-rights-_uber alles_-approach, which I consider to be a form of tyranny in itself. I find expectation of support from society no more or less distasteful than the expectation that I obey society’s democratically decided law. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/24 "2004-09-01T09:59:53Z")
What **SentientMeat** just said. If the choice is between a ruthlessly efficient society that (either actively, by conscription, ir passively, by absolute refusal of even the most basic support) forces people to work (and indeed, in this case, _defines_ the meaning of the word ‘work’), or a society that tolerates a little inefficiency and makes a few allowances, I’d prefer the latter. In reality, of course, the choice is seldom if ever so polarised. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/25 "2004-09-01T11:20:59Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > \ ***Proposition #34: \* Those who are able to work, and refuse the opportunity, should not expect society’s support.** Economic: 3.62 Social Libertarian: -2.05 Strongly agree. No adult has the right to live off the effort of others and we should not support such parasites. > [@](#): > > It seems that so long as unemployment is non-zero even for the willing, removing support for the unwilling will only make them pretend to be willing. Man must make bread by the sweat of his brow. If someone wants to eat, have a place to sleep, and clothing on their back bad enough then they’re willing to work for it. They might not like it but they’re willing. > [@Blalron](#): > > This discussing makes me think of the homeless in our society. I believe we could easily eliminate this problem if we simply gave all the homeless cheap apartments to live in, some clean clothes to wear, and three square meals a day. Would it really solve the homeless problem? I only ask because I was under the impression that most of the permanent homeless in this country suffer from severe mental problems and or drug and alcohol abuse. Are homeless shelters normally filled to capacity? Where would you propose we put these ghettos? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Strongly disagree. We cannot as a society sit back and watch as others starve. If someone of sound mind and body chooses to starve themselves who are we to stop them? Marc ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/26 "2004-09-01T11:31:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Man must make bread by the sweat of his brow. Eww. Sandwich, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/27 "2004-09-01T17:45:39Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I still disagree, **John** - I try to mirror the propositions in the thread titles as closely as possible but there just isn’t space for every single word. But at what point WOULD you be willing to draw the line? Should the fellow in question EXPECT to be supported by society if he refuses to work EVER? I’m not asking if society should support this guy, I’m asking if he should expect to be supported. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/28 "2004-09-02T08:24:09Z")
> [@](#): > > But at what point WOULD you be willing to draw the line? I believe I addressed that in the OP: Minimal, temporary (say, a year at a time) and conditional support is what I would advocate that he could reasonably expect. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/29 "2004-09-02T11:41:46Z")
Strongly agree. Supporting people who decide not to work is a job for charity, not government. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/30 "2004-09-02T16:12:58Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > …We cannot as a society sit back and watch as others starve. The very minimal necessities for human existence must be provided by society regardless of the person’s desire to work… That’s an interesting spin on who’s actually doing the _“sitting back”_. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/31 "2004-09-05T15:24:55Z")
I’m in the middle (I don’t know much about the political compass, can I be in the middle?) 0.00, -0.00 ? > [@](#): > > Those who are able to work, and refuse the opportunity, should not expect society’s support. I have no problem with supporting someone who has just lost their job and is desperately seeking work, but only temporary. After that, you mind as well take what you can get, just to get by. People will always be out of work at times. The ones I take issue with are the scumbags who are perfectly healthy and expect welfare. I’m sorry, but you need to get off your ass and get a damn job. Actually, I’m not sorry. I’m not your mother, feed yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/32 "2004-09-07T04:51:39Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Man must make bread by the sweat of his brow. If someone wants to eat, have a place to sleep, and clothing on their back bad enough then they’re willing to work for it. They might not like it but they’re willing. I honestly hope that one day machines will be able to take care of all the necesities of life. Let’s face it, work sucks. I’ve been working nearly 12 hour days recently, and I ironically have a certain level of respect for people who refuse to work. Doing mindless bullshit for most of your waking hours, it’s almost a tossup for me whether I’d rather live on the streets. Seriously. Next time I see a homeless guy I’ll toss him a sawbuck. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/33 "2004-09-07T05:03:19Z")
Agree, exactly because society should \*support \* the individual. Paying those who can work and refuse to is not supporting them. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/34 "2004-09-07T05:56:22Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Agree, exactly because society should \*support \* the individual. Paying those who can work and refuse to is not supporting them. Who says we have to pay them cash? Give them the bare minimum in food and shelter to survive. Only a tiny minority of people who are willing to live a unabomber style existence would be happy with just that. The vast majority who would take such assistance would voluntarily choose to work to get something better. And if some of them don’t, so what? They are human beings, with inherent value and dignity regardless of whether they work or not. We already provide 2 million people with free food, shelter, and even medical care in the United States. Who are these 2 million people? Those who are in incarcerated in our criminal justice system. See, we are already intent to feed and house the misfits, proposing to extend this protection to beyond just our criminals shouldn’t be too much of a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/35 "2004-09-10T17:33:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Proposition #34: Those who are able to work, and refuse the opportunity, should not expect society’s support. **Strongly agree** It boggles the mind that anyone could not strongly agree with the statement when it is worded so clearly. They are _able_ to work. They _refuse_. They _expect_ society’s support. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/36 "2004-09-10T18:12:32Z")
Strongly agree (7.15, -1.15) > [@](#): > > Proposition #34: Those who are able to work, and refuse the opportunity, should not expect society’s support. No they should not if that support is obtained by taxation or other means of coercion. I find it a good idea to substitute “I” or “you” for the more anonymous “society” in these kinds of questions, since that’s what it boils down to in the end. So “Should I have to be forced to pay for those who can’t be bothered to pay for themselves?” Fuck no! I work so I can support my family not because I think it’s sunshine and happy days. Work is time that I’d rather have spend on other things, like family and hobbies or SDMB. What kind of arrogant bastard think his life and his time is worth more than mine, that I should be forced to spend my time to support his leisure hobbies? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/37 "2004-09-10T18:33:04Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I honestly hope that one day machines will be able to take care of all the necesities of life. Let’s face it, work sucks. I’ve been working nearly 12 hour days recently, and I ironically have a certain level of respect for people who refuse to work. Doing mindless bullshit for most of your waking hours, it’s almost a tossup for me whether I’d rather live on the streets. Seriously. Next time I see a homeless guy I’ll toss him a sawbuck. 😃 You paint an interesting dichotomy, but the choice is not between mindless work and homelessness. There are plenty of people out there who genuinely love their work. Perhaps you should consider doing something you enjoy rather than giving up. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/38 "2004-09-10T23:52:59Z")
Agree. (around -3, -5) I’ll happily pay for a safety net to support people who can’t work, for whatever reason, or even people who leave work in order to improve their skills or care for a relative. But that’s it, a safety net for people whose disabilities, obligations, or misfortunes prevent them from working, not a handout for slackers who would just rather have someone else work in their place. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/39 "2004-09-11T00:52:25Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Man must make bread by the sweat of his brow. If someone wants to eat, have a place to sleep, and clothing on their back bad enough then they’re willing to work for it. They might not like it but they’re willing. > > Marc Isn’t basic human dignity the birthright of everyone? Why should “working for it” have to do with anything? If you seek more than the bare minimum levels. Better food, better housing, finer clothes, you can be required to work for that. But in a world where we have so much, why should merely _surviving_ have to be a day to day struggle? I think society would be better off if nobody _had_ to work. Working is something you should do for personal fufilment, not to stay alive. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395/40 "2004-09-11T01:04:00Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You paint an interesting dichotomy, but the choice is not between mindless work and homelessness. There are plenty of people out there who genuinely love their work. Perhaps you should consider doing something you enjoy rather than giving up. Fortunately for me this is part of a transition phase to go on and do something that I do like. > [@Rune](#): > > No they should not if that support is obtained by taxation or other means of coercion. > > I find it a good idea to substitute “I” or “you” for the more anonymous “society” in these kinds of questions, since that’s what it boils down to in the end. So “Should I have to be forced to pay for those who can’t be bothered to pay for themselves?” In a more enlightened society, people would see the wisdom of allowing work to be for those who are fufilled by it and voluntarily contribute towards sustaining the minority of people who are not fufilled by “work.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-34-society-should-not-support-those-who-refuse-to-work/262395.md?page=1)