# Political Compass #42: The death penalty should be an option for serious crimes. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2004, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086 "2004-11-22T10:07:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/21 "2004-11-22T13:32:41Z")
Economic Left/Right: 1.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.10 I have to Strongly disagree with #42 for reasons that have nothing to do with morality. While I’d happily act as executioner for some of our home-grown scum, I’m opposed to the return of the Death Penalty to Canada becuase I don’t want to see our judiciary turned into an appeals industry, with the convicted being executed (if at all) only after a decade or more of slowly grinding court proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/22 "2004-11-22T13:46:39Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > As I said in my OP, I am contending that these are all that are _necessary_ to fulfil the criteria of deterrence and punishment: no _more_ entities need be proposed, in an Ockhamist parsimony sense. Of course, you are arguing from the POV that life in prison is preferable, for the convicted, to execution. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/23 "2004-11-22T13:49:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Escapes from maximum security prisons are quite uncommon. They may be so nowadays in the US, Western Europe etc but this debate is non-specific as regards geography and time-period. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/24 "2004-11-22T13:52:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course, you are arguing from the POV that life in prison is preferable, for the convicted, to execution Of course, if you actually read my OP, you will find that I say completely the _opposite_: > [@](#): > > It would seem that decades in a small room in a brutal and oppressive institution is no let-off compared to granting the criminal a painless but dramatic martyrdom which allows them to curse the state and consider _themselves_ the victim to the very end…No, I cannot say that a life sentence is less of a punishment than a death sentence. I even gave an example of a woman who could almost certainly have _avoided_ death if only she had spoken out about her mistrial. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/25 "2004-11-22T14:01:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Escapes from maximum security prisons are quite uncommon. But more common than wrongfully executing an innocent person. Therefore, if you execute a thousand murderers and thereby prevent X numbers of [escapes ending in murder,](http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/opinions/tsc/PDF/983/hallwill.pdf) you have to show that X + 1 innocents have been executed to argue against use of the DP. About 1.2% of all murderers are [re-arrested within three years for another murder,](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/rpr94.htm) which could be prevented by the DP as well. I just finished a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=280712&highlight=penalty) covering many of my arguments in its favor. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/26 "2004-11-22T14:09:36Z")
And what of my argument that such a view is [statistically fallacious](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes_theorem), **Shodan**? One could similarly show that the death penalty for speeding, or even for _suspected_ criminal activity, can save “innocent” lives. You are arbitrarily choosing a random variable on which to examine a probability **given** that variable. I cannot see any further argument of yours in that thread which I did not address in _my_ OP: could you summarise them, and respond to what I said there? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/27 "2004-11-22T14:17:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But more common than wrongfully executing an innocent person. Therefore, if you execute a thousand murderers and thereby prevent X numbers of [escapes ending in murder,](http://www.tsc.state.tn.us/opinions/tsc/PDF/983/hallwill.pdf) you have to show that X + 1 innocents have been executed to argue against use of the DP. I believe you have a hidden assumption that there is a mathematical equivalency here between the acts of madmen and the acts of society. I don’t buy that. My position is that society does not need to commit murder. Whether society commits more or fewer murders than madmen is irrelevant to me. > [@](#): > > About 1.2% of all murderers are re-arrested within three years for another murder, which could be prevented by the DP as well. Life in prison without parole is just as effective. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/28 "2004-11-22T14:18:14Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Of course, if you actually read my OP, you will find that I say completely the _opposite_ I did read your OP in its entirity which is why I’m confused when you argue that inflicting the greater punishment (a lifetime of incarceration) is not vengeance while dishing out the lesser one (execution) is. > [@SentientMeat](#): > > As I said in my OP, I am contending that (the deprivation of property/liberty) are all that are necessary to fulfil the criteria of deterrence and punishment. This quote suggests to me, however, that you view a life of incarceration as preferable to execution, as far as the convicted is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/29 "2004-11-22T14:27:55Z")
> [@](#): > > **m33** : you argue that inflicting the greater punishment (a lifetime of incarceration) is not vengeance while dishing out the lesser one (execution) is. I said that the only reason I could think of for justifying a punishment _other than_ deprivation of property or liberty was _vengeance_. I argue that deterrence and punishment can be satisfied without the death penalty, and that vengeance as a criterion is _unnecessary_. I am not interested in a semantical exploration of what does and does not constitute “vengeance” as an entity - that would be as irrelevant here as debating euthanasia. > [@](#): > > This quote suggests to me, however, that you view a life of incarceration as preferable to execution, as far as the convicted is concerned. My quotation stated explicitly that I consider _death_ to be preferable to life imprisonment as far as the convict is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/30 "2004-11-22T15:04:10Z")
Forgive me if I’m being a tad slow here **Sentient**. I’m not interested in what “vengeance” means but why is the harsher punishment not so while the lesser one is? Especially if the harsher one is of no greater deterence. Is it because it has more “punishment” built in? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/31 "2004-11-22T15:22:37Z")
I’d agree that the terms we’re using here can be a little tricky, **marky**. I’d suggest that you’re focussing on right now is the _punitive_ aspect, which is not necessarily anything to do with _revenge_. For any crime there must be a proportional punishment in the interests of deterrence, prevention and justice being "seen to be done’. Disproportionately harsh or lenient punishments have negative societal effects. Now, in this case, it is difficult to see which of the punishments (life imprisonment or death) are “harsher” - there are arguments for both. However, this is not the same as _vengeance_. I would suggest that _vengeance_ has far less to do with deterrence, prevention or impartial justice than with an _emotional and passionate_ desire to harm those who have harmed you or others. Just because one punishment or another is _harsher_ or _less desired by the convict_ than another does not make it more _vengeful_: that characteristic only rears its head if there is a question of the punishment being motivated by visceral, human passion rather than rigorous and cold policy-making. Life imprisonment is far more _punitive_ than an afternoon in the stocks, or chopping off a hand. However, I would offer that the latter have their basis in _revenge_ where incarceration does not, since they involve wishing to see humiliation and domination visited upon another in order to satiate emotional human urges. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/32 "2004-11-22T15:35:55Z")
Looked up my old scores again: Libertarian/Right Economic Left/Right: 4.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.18 > [@](#): > > Political Compass #42: The death penalty should be an option for serious crimes. I’m going to say I also disagree, though not strongly. Mainly I disagree because of how our current system opperates, not necessarily on ‘humanitarian’ or ‘moral’ grounds. Essentially I think the US should ditch the capital punishment system because A) I’m unsure of the deterent effect of the system on preventing capital crimes, especially in light of the appeals process, B) Its a drag on our system, increasing an already stretch workload on our courts, again due to the seemingly endless appeals process, where it literally takes years to actuall execute someone, and C) Due to the appeals system it ends up costing us more to execute someone than to simply put them away for life. -XT ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/33 "2004-11-22T15:38:21Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Life imprisonment is far more _punitive_ than an afternoon in the stocks, or chopping off a hand. However, I would offer that the latter have their basis in _revenge_ where incarceration does not. But couldn’t a criminal’s victims want passionately to see the perpetrator slowly rot in a jail cell for the rest of his days rather than “get away” with being executed? This, by your reasoning, would then be _vengeance_, right? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/34 "2004-11-22T15:44:39Z")
Yes it would, which is why I’d be extremely uncomfortable with the victims getting to dictate policy. Like I said in my OP, that people _feel_ that way is perfectly understandable, but the thought of a _state government_ feeling that way fills me with dread. The legislature must be analytical and impassionate: allowing revenge into our _laws_ is a step towards [false democracy](http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/m/mill/john_stuart/m645r/chapter7.html). ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/35 "2004-11-22T15:57:57Z")
Why do you suggest that, given circumstances whereby a criminal deserves the harshest of punishments, the state would reason any differently to an emotional victim? If there are only two choices - life (sentence) or death - who’s to say a group of legislators will not also decide they would like to see the “scum rot away the rest of their lives in a cell” rather than “escape” through execution? If it is merely a matter of perception, could we not use the same arguments **against** life imprisonment and **for** the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/36 "2004-11-22T16:14:16Z")
(_Impassive_ should replace _impassionate_ in my last reply.) > [@](#): > > who’s to say a group of legislators will not also decide they would like to see the “scum rot away the rest of their lives in a cell” rather than “escape” through execution? They might well do so, which is why I argue that vengeance is not a valid motivation for state action _regardless_ of who thinks what. If you agree with that sentiment, we can go on to ask whether punishments _other than_ the deprivation of property or liberty we currently enact are _necessary_. I contend that the state _reasons_ where the emotional victim simply _retaliates_. > [@](#): > > If it is merely a matter of perception, could we not use the same arguments against life imprisonment and for the death penalty. One point must be made clear here: it is entirely possible for the “right” position to be held for completely the _wrong_ reasons. You appear to be arguing that just because someone somewhere might slaver bloodthirstily at the thought of confining a murderer in a box for decades and dismiss death as a let-off, my position that justice ought not be motivated by revenge is somehow impugned. I argue that the death penalty os _unnecessary_. You might consider _imprisonment_ to be unnecessary, and think that we could abolish _it_ and replace it with physical punishments and tortures against the person. I would ask you what your _justification_ for such a switch might be. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/37 "2004-11-22T16:36:42Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > You appear to be arguing that just because someone somewhere might slaver bloodthirstily at the thought of confining a murderer in a box for decades and dismiss death as a let-off, my position that justice ought not be motivated by revenge is somehow impugned. I am arguing no such thing. The point I was trying to get across was that, if these ‘legislators’ were thinking vengefully in considering a lifetime’s incarceration a fitting punishment (plausible) - then the “lesser” death sentence could equally present a level-headed, analytical, impassive alternative. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/38 "2004-11-22T16:47:09Z")
> [@](#): > > The point I was trying to get across was that, if these ‘legislators’ were thinking vengefully in considering a lifetime’s incarceration a fitting punishment (plausible) - then the “lesser” death sentence could equally present a level-headed, analytical, impassive alternative. But it would still be an alternative of an altogether different _type_ to what we _already_ enact for all kinds of _other_ crimes. The _harshness_ is not the issue here. If the death penalty is indeed to be arrived at analytically and impassively, one must explain why imprisonment, which clearly _is_ appropriate for anything from assault to fraud, is _not_ appropriate for murder. From a _dispassionate_ viewpoint, why the switch for more serious crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/39 "2004-11-22T17:00:10Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > And what of my argument that such a view is [statistically fallacious](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes_theorem), **Shodan**? You haven’t shown that it is statistically invalid. Your cite states that Bayes’ theorem is valid as a mathematical concept. > [@SentientMeat](#): > > One could similarly show that the death penalty for speeding, or even for _suspected_ criminal activity, can save “innocent” lives. You are arbitrarily choosing a random variable on which to examine a probability **given** that variable. “Number of innocent lives lost” is hardly a random variable - you used that as a good to argue against the death penalty in your OP. The reason we don’t execute people for speeding is not statistical - it is moral. We give greater moral condemnation to deliberate acts such as murder than we do to accidental deaths such as from speeding. Plus,I think the implied assertion that we would reduce innocent deaths if we executed speeders is mistaken - the number of speeders who never kill anyone is proportionately much higher than the number of repeat murderers. In short, I don’t think you have addressed my point at all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086/40 "2004-11-22T17:07:27Z")
I cannot find my original number, it was almost smack dab in the center I remember. I have never heard of an execution being refered to as an “escape”. weird. The Bible, in Romans chapter 13, states that God has given the state the power of life or death over the criminal. For those who try to follow the Bible, this allows us to support the death penalty for serious crimes. Is our system inefficient? Yes. But to argue that since we’ve made mistakes we should never execute anyone makes me wonder why we allow almost anyone to drive since clearly many people are incompetent at it resulting in far more automoble deaths ([44,888 in 2003](http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/consumerawareness/a/transdeaths03.htm)) than murders and executions combined ([16,503 murders](http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03cius.htm) and [65 executions](http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGACT500122004) ). Now, I’ll admit we do not have a perfect system, we should work to ensure that the best safeguards are in place. But not at the expense of not punishing the most severe crimes. Does anyone regret the punishment of Timothy McVeigh? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-42-the-death-penalty-should-be-an-option-for-serious-crimes/276086.md?page=3)