# Political Compass #59: Adult bedroom activity is no business of the state. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 18, 2005, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956 "2005-07-18T08:40:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/21 "2005-07-18T18:49:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I cannot agree that this behavior is consensual. The problem in that scenario is surely not the _sex_ but the _inaffordability of crack_? If I may ask, what did you tick here? (And I was aware of sodomy laws and the like, **MEB** - I was wondering whether there would actually be anyone _here_ willing to defend them.) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/22 "2005-07-18T18:54:26Z")
**Sage Rat _(1, -1)_** Strongly Agree. I would even be fine with the German cannibal couple–except of course that he must still prove in court that the murdered person was there of his own willl and desired such to happen. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/23 "2005-07-18T19:38:19Z")
Strongly agree, though I think criminality is a limiting factor. The problem becomes proving criminal activity without invading the bedroom privacy between two consenting adults. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/24 "2005-07-18T19:43:47Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > If I may ask, what did you tick here? Agree. I think in general it’s a fair statement, but there are exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/25 "2005-07-18T19:45:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Consent.” > > An 18-year-old crack addict, desperate to feed her addiction, will accept $50 to provide vaginal and anal sex to a paying 60-year-old man. > > I cannot agree that this behavior is consensual. > > It clearly falls within the ambit of legal consent, however. She might equally accept $50 to wade into a sewage-filled basement and haul bucket after bucket of human waste out of it, to satisfy a local business-owner. (Something fairly similar to this happened at a local bar, where the owner paid something like $250 to a couple local drug addicts to clean out a sewage-filled basement). Is _that_ consent? Assuming that the business owner paid all appropriate taxes on the expenditure, ought it be illegal to make such a hiring? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/26 "2005-07-18T19:51:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Agree. I think in general it’s a fair statement, but there are exceptions. My overall: Economic Left/Right: 6.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.33 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/27 "2005-07-18T19:55:43Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > She might equally accept $50 to wade into a sewage-filled basement and haul bucket after bucket of human waste out of it, to satisfy a local business-owner. (Something fairly similar to this happened at a local bar, where the owner paid something like $250 to a couple local drug addicts to clean out a sewage-filled basement). > > Is _that_ consent? Assuming that the business owner paid all appropriate taxes on the expenditure, ought it be illegal to make such a hiring? It may not be consent. And there may be room for making it illegal – did the businessman seek out desparate crack addicts in an effort to pay rock-bottom prices? I’d be willing to explore the consequences of making such behavior illegal. ---
**Author:** ![funeste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@funeste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funeste)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/28 "2005-07-18T20:25:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It may not be consent. And there may be room for making it illegal – did the businessman seek out desparate crack addicts in an effort to pay rock-bottom prices? I’d be willing to explore the consequences of making such behavior illegal. What if they were desperate to feed their stomach rather than their crack addiction? What is the salient difference between the work-for-food and the sex-for-drugs transactions that makes the former consensual but not the latter? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/29 "2005-07-18T21:15:52Z")
(-3.75, -4.97) I could not care less about what other humans fuck unless they did it on public sidewalks and I tripped over them while they did it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/30 "2005-07-18T21:38:55Z")
> [@funeste](#): > > What if they were desperate to feed their stomach rather than their crack addiction? What is the salient difference between the work-for-food and the sex-for-drugs transactions that makes the former consensual but not the latter? This society has mechanisms in place to feed the hungry. Under what circumstances might someone be starving and unable to feed themselves in the US today? We do not have mechanisms to get crack to the addicted. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/31 "2005-07-18T22:27:14Z")
(-3.63,-6.21) Strongly agree. Lady Sally McGee had it right–consenting behavior among adults is prefectly fine as long as it doesn’t involve former food or former people. And even the first is negotiable. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/32 "2005-07-18T22:52:27Z")
Economic Left/Right: -4.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49 Hey! I’m in the same corner as the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela! 😃 IÈll start out by saying that I strongly agree with the OP. “The State has no business in the bedrooms of the Nation.” I take that to mean that the State has no business dictating the forms of sexual and romantic activity among adults who can give consent. This includes marriage. So, yes, I guess that means I’m in favour of legalising group or multiple marriage (whatever you want to call it). I draw the line at including people or other entities who are unable to give informed consent, who are being coerced, or who are at a power disadvantage. So this excludes animals, children, and slaves or subordinates. Although, presumably, it would include intelligent aliens. (Anything that’s a ‘people’…) More after I read the rest of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![funeste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@funeste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funeste)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/33 "2005-07-19T01:27:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This society has mechanisms in place to feed the hungry. Under what circumstances might someone be starving and unable to feed themselves in the US today? I didn’t realize this was about the US. The question still stands. > [@Bricker](#): > > We do not have mechanisms to get crack to the addicted. Some countries actually do provide drugs legally to addicts who do not respond to methadone treatment. Would the behavior of the hapless person in your earlier example be consensual if she lived in such a country? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/34 "2005-07-19T01:33:20Z")
(-3.38, -5.54) **Strongly agree**. I see this statement as a subset of “What goes on in a private bedroom between consenting _individuals_ is no business of the state,” which I strongly agree with, and I take “no business” to mean that the state should not attempt to limit or prevent any consensual activities that might occur there. “Consent” is the tricky part; my definition is probably in the minority here, but that may be beside the point. In the case of prostitution, which I believe this statement supports, the state does have a legitimate interest in _knowing_ what happens in the private bedroom, but only to the extent that it’s necessary to show that no one was (e.g.) defrauded or raped. They have no business telling the prostitute what services s/he may offer or what s/he may charge for them. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/35 "2005-07-19T01:42:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Consent.” > > An 18-year-old crack addict, desperate to feed her addiction, will accept $50 to provide vaginal and anal sex to a paying 60-year-old man. > > I cannot agree that this behavior is consensual. > > It clearly falls within the ambit of legal consent, however. It is consensual. The decision is derived from a weighting of conflicting desires a)The 18 year old rather not have sex with the man. Emotional desire. b)OTOH, the 18 year old certainly doesn’t want the withdrawal (or craving) to remain unattacked. Emotional desire. Resolution: The craving wins out over the repulsion. The sex is simply a means to an end. I think you believe this nonconsensual because of the romantic notion of sex as exclusively a currency of love. Well, people use sex as a barter in many different social dynamics. Your example happens to be economic. You may find the behaviour repulsive, but it’s hard to call it not consensual. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/36 "2005-07-19T02:00:45Z")
(-0.50, -4.00) **Agree**. This is a tricky question. The impulse is to strongly agree. But we have laws for a reason. There are atleast two types of reasons for laws. The first type, is when individuals are harmed by a transaction, such transaction is banned, e.g. murder. On this basis, govt. has no business in consensual sexual activity. The second type, is when the effects of certain behaviour are aggregated over society, the emergent dynamics leave society in an undesirable position or create an ethos which don’t sit well with the existing ethos, even if such transactions among the direct willing actors don’t harm the actors themselves. The questions are, should laws be decided on this basis (even if they aren’t advertised as such)? …and… how and who should calculate the emergent effects and acceptable threshold for liberties? The answers to these determine the moral basis for the drug war, prostitution, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage…etc. I can see a valid point being made that all or most human interactions have spillover effects or undesired effects when aggregated, and in some cases, the ‘society’ may force restrictions. I don’t know how to calculate it, or who ought to decide, though. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/37 "2005-07-19T02:03:52Z")
**Correction** : _I can see a valid point being made that human interactions can have spillover effects or undesired effects when aggregated_… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/38 "2005-07-19T02:17:31Z")
> [@funeste](#): > > I didn’t realize this was about the US. The question still stands. Then answer my counter: under what circumstances would someone in the US go hungry, when there are numerous programs in place to deliver food to the hungry? > [@](#): > > Some countries actually do provide drugs legally to addicts who do not respond to methadone treatment. Would the behavior of the hapless person in your earlier example be consensual if she lived in such a country? I don’t know. The answer depends on the totality of circumstances in the country in question. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/39 "2005-07-19T02:18:26Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > So what about the german cannibal case where one man consented to be cut up and eaten by another? Should the state have buisness in the affairs of those two men? When you go around killing people and getting killed for the sake of an orgasm, you’re batshit crazy and the state has a right to put you in the looney bin. I’d argue further that if you’re just plain maiming yourself – definable as losing digits, limbs an d/or organs, or maiming others, you are also batshit crazy and the state needs to lock you in a looney bin so you can’t harm yourself aor others needlessly. Now, say you have testicular cancer and are going to HAVE to lose the testicles, I guess it would be OK to do them in the format of an SM ritual, since they’re gonna have to go anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956/40 "2005-07-19T02:19:03Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > It is consensual. The decision is derived from a weighting of conflicting desires > > a)The 18 year old rather not have sex with the man. Emotional desire. > > b)OTOH, the 18 year old certainly doesn’t want the withdrawal (or craving) to remain unattacked. Emotional desire. > > Resolution: The craving wins out over the repulsion. The sex is simply a means to an end. > > I think you believe this nonconsensual because of the romantic notion of sex as exclusively a currency of love. Well, people use sex as a barter in many different social dynamics. Your example happens to be economic. You may find the behaviour repulsive, but it’s hard to call it not consensual. I don’t agree. “Emotional desire” is not an accurate term to describe physical addiction to a substance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-compass-59-adult-bedroom-activity-is-no-business-of-the-state/312956.md?page=3)