# Political correctness - allowing China to dictate what we (Western nations) do or say. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478 "2019-10-08T15:21:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/61 "2019-10-09T14:46:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This is not an issue of pandering to the Chinese to sell them some stuff. This is about an GM voicing support for the people of Hong Kong who want freedom and the NBA not supporting him and kowtowing to China. This is not an attempt by China to simply limit free speech there, it’s an attempt by them to limit free speech here, and the NBA stepped in it by not immediately supporting their GM and his right to free speech instead of apologizing to China. This is a matter of principle more important than the worship of money. To the NBA, or the NFL or the NCAA, or … you get the idea, there is no issue more important than money. Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/62 "2019-10-09T15:20:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So I have a question for Dopers with longer memories or better history knowledge: Did the United States (or U.S. businesses, or schools) ever censor themselves in the past when speaking about any other autocratic foreign power? (such as the Reich in the 1930s-1940s or the Soviet Union during the Cold War?) Is it just because China has $$$ to offer and those didn’t? Not during the Cold War, that’s for sure. The Russians/Soviets were THE looming bad guys in nearly every action or spy movie out there. We had Presidents refer to the Soviet Union as “the Evil Empire”. If anything, painting them as some combination of secretive, oppressive, paranoid, aggressive, and backward was encouraged. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/63 "2019-10-09T15:42:24Z")
This story was up on the AP this morning and I thought y’all might find relevant to the discussion: [China criticizes Apple for app that tracks Hong Kong police](https://apnews.com/5072bbc7b7894d63892997e2313b88fb). In a nutshell, the app allows people to post things that are happening at a location which is then placed on a map of Hong Kong: police are gathering at this intersection; they’ve fired tear gas in this park; etc. Beijing doesn’t like this: > [@](#): > > HKmap.live, designed by an outside supplier and available on Apple Inc.’s online store, “facilitates illegal behavior,” People’s Daily said in a commentary. > > “Is Apple guiding Hong Kong thugs?” the newspaper said. They’re laying it on heavy, albeit through third and fourth parties at the moment: > [@](#): > > Asked whether the Chinese government had asked Apple to remove HKmap.live from its online store, a foreign ministry spokesman said he had no information about that. > > “What I can tell you is that these radical, violent crimes in Hong Kong have seriously challenged the legal system and social order in Hong Kong, threatened the safety of Hong Kong residents’ lives and property, and undermined the prosperity and stability of Hong Kong,” said the spokesman, Geng Shuang. > > “Anyone who has a conscience and justice should resist and oppose instead of supporting and indulging those actions,” Geng said at a regular news briefing. > [@](#): > > “Apple jumped into this on its own and mixed together business with politics and commercial activity with illegal activities,” People’s Daily said. > [@](#): > > “This recklessness will cause much trouble for Apple,” People’s Daily said. “Apple needs to think deeply.” I think people should get to work and make as many of these apps for as many different cities as possible as fast as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/64 "2019-10-09T15:58:21Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > [Two fans were ejected from an NBA game in Philadelphia for holding pro-Hong Kong signs.](https://6abc.com/sports/sixers-fan-supporting-hong-kong-ejected-from-preseason-game/5604293/) This is so disheartening. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/65 "2019-10-09T16:09:09Z")
Clear illustration of how we can’t count on businesses, capitalism, or profit motive to ensure the safety, stability, or security of our society. And “political correctness” has nothing to do with it. Ultimately, the NBA (and Hollywood, and anyone else) is being paid to say or not say certain things. And those organizations have decided that it’s in their own best financial interests to take the money. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/66 "2019-10-09T18:00:40Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > All the institutions that fail to stand up to China deserve complaint, the NBA included. Gotta love how the NBA went from abject kowtowing to just embarrassing obsequiousness. ''We of course support free speech, but gee he shouldna done that, there are consequences, tch-tch."\* \*the gist of Adam Silver’s followup statement. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/67 "2019-10-09T18:41:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But punching me in the face is inherently wrong, so I think the context is different. “Joe went to get a burger, offending PETA, which is regrettable” is more analogous. And in such a statement, validating PETA’s hurt feelings is a rebuke to Joe. > > But I agree that the word “apology” doesn’t seem really apt in this situation. Someone has to have a slight amount of guts and pride to admit error. The NBA seems unburdened by such a modest amount of courage. I definitely agree on sharpening the analogy that way. It’s not a matter of how ‘real’ the apology is. I get storyteller0910’s point that somebody who felt they deserved a real apology might well be dissatisfied with the NBA and related party statements\*, but the point here is really whether the Houston GM did anything wrong at all, not a question of how the NBA dealt with something we all agree was wrong. Stand with protesters against arguably the most murderous regime, by the numbers, in world history. Why is that to be ‘regretted’? That’s the key question to me, not whether private people in China view it as offensive (though many probably do), certainly not how the Communist Party views it. Of course the much larger issue here is the tiny tip of the iceberg (actually much smaller than the proportion of an iceberg that sticks out of the water 🙂 ) this comment by the Houston GM represents compared to all the statements about the Communist regime in China _not_ made by various people and entities in the US out of concern for commercial interests, and just plain blind spot by many ordinary people who follow the lead of the media and entertainment world in what injustices they talk about and which ones they ignore. \*note Rockets star James Harden _did_ apologize, Rockets owner more directly rebuked the GM than the NBA did in English, and the English translation of the NBA’s Chinese language statement is more grovelling than the English version. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/68 "2019-10-09T20:07:43Z")
Steven A. Smith of ESPN is [unsurprisingly coming down hard on China’s side.](https://deadspin.com/stephen-a-smith-pauses-between-bootlicks-to-tell-daryl-1838854121) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/69 "2019-10-09T20:24:23Z")
This isn’t “political correctness.” This is the worship of money above all else. The NBA should be ashamed of itself. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/70 "2019-10-09T20:56:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Steven A. Smith of ESPN is [unsurprisingly coming down hard on China’s side.](https://deadspin.com/stephen-a-smith-pauses-between-bootlicks-to-tell-daryl-1838854121) Thread here [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=883365](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=883365) ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/71 "2019-10-09T21:48:40Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You can criticize the NBA all you like. But, are you criticizing all of the countries that are doing similar things for similar reasons? What about the politicians who are doing similar things for similar reasons? To the extent that I am aware of them, yes. > [@](#): > > As a for instance, are you aware that just about every country has now backed off of support for Taiwan? 10 years ago, there were still a bunch of countries that acknowledged Taiwan as separate from China (i.e. not a break away Chinese province). Today, that has narrowed a lot, due completely to CCP pressure. The US is one of the few holdouts, and that’s because our Taiwan policy has always been wonky (for our own reasons). I am aware of that, although my impression was that our Taiwan policy has always been wonky for kinda the same reason everyone else is folding. In the early days, the CCP knew that they couldn’t actually change our behavior, but made it a critical and non-negotiable part of doing business with them that we couldn’t _acknowledge_ the state of reality. Judging (likely correctly) that we’d be willing to give up on some language for economic reasons, and that in the long term, that would compromise Taiwan, as it’d be pretty hard for Taiwan to really fully rely on an ally that’s not willing to even maintain that they really exist publicly. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/72 "2019-10-10T00:41:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Why do we give two fucks about whether Chinese television shows NBA? If they get their panties in a twist every time someone in the US says something they don’t like, tough titties. Just a side point, the people of China love basketball. It’s huge, one of the biggest if not _the_ biggest sport in that country. Europe and Latin America have soccer, the U.S. has tackle football, India has Cricket, and China has ping pong. What? Okay, I guess basketball is second to ping pong in China like baseball is second to football in the States. There’s nothing more American than baseball, and there’s nothing more Chinese than basketball. Don’t think too hard about it or you might disagree with me. What is the point I’m trying to make? Look at it from a utilitarian perspective. Broadcasting the NBA in China will make a _lot_ of Chinese people happy. It also will make the NBA a _lot_ of money, but eh, that probably has _absolutely no bearing on the NBA’s decision_. Even if it did, the ends justify the means yeah? Okay, now how many people are unhappy because the NBA compromised what we consider to be core values? A couple thousand people, tops. Now remember that all people are equal. Sure, China doesn’t necessarily have the same definition of people or equal as we do, but if we’re going to judge China’s actions we might as well use our own definitions and morals. They sure don’t use ours. Okay, so we’ve got two options: [ul][li]Millions of happy Chinese people but a couple thousand unhappy American people[/li][li]Millions of unhappy Chinese people but a couple thousand happy American people[/ul][/li]Remember that all people are equal and making people happy is desirable to making people unhappy. Essentially we have a situation where you can have more happy people, or you can have more unhappy people. What do you choose? Moore happy people, duh! Okay, now some people will say we would be letting China tell us what to do. That’s bad, because even though we don’t seem to care if Chinese people are guaranteed freedom from Chinese oppression, it’s still important that American people are free from Chinese oppression. This contradicts the notion that all people are created equal, but we’ll ignore that because the previous generalization _might_ not apply to the people raising this argument. The answer is that we aren’t giving up any freedoms by acceding to China’s demands. They can’t _make_ us do anything, we’re coming to the conclusion that what the NBA did is perfectly moral. China doesn’t have a gun to our head like it does to the Chinese citizens. We aren’t being coerced to make this conclusion, we looked at the people involved and decided that the NBA made the right decision. Now you might say, China might as well ask us to give them 30% of our income or they will shoot all of their people. The old slippery slope argument. Well it doesn’t work. Look at it this way. Money doesn’t buy happiness, but poverty buys unhappiness. If you take 30% income from the American people and hand it over to China, you would be making the American people unhappy by plunging them into poverty. You don’t actually have to go into poverty to become unhappy, almost any reduction of benefits that you come to rely on will do it. And what exactly are you getting in return? China isn’t going to give that money to their people, we know that because China’s all corrupt and stuff. So you have no benefit in return; it’s a bad deal. Contrast with the NBA broadcasting in China, which has always been conditional on the Chinese government’s consent. Okay but let’s look at the micro. Before I said money had nothing to do with the NBA decision. I was actually being sarcastic there, but now I’ll explain myself. You see, the people who work at NBA get _paid_. And further, they get paid to _make more money_. One of the big ways the NBA makes money is by selling the license to broadcast the NBA games. So essentially, people get paid more when they _sell more licenses to broadcast_. Naturally it follows that if the NBA employees sell _less_ licenses, they get paid less. And we’ve already gone over how being paid less makes people unhappy. So on the micro level you have NBA executives deciding what’s best for them and their families. I said before that all people are equal, but on the micro level, it’s usually “family is more equal than non-family”. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s a good survival strategy at least. So you have the NBA executives thinking about things a little different. Let’s look: [ul][li]Millions of happy Chinese people and a happy family but a couple thousand unhappy American people[/li][li]Millions of unhappy Chinese people but a couple thousand happy American people and an unhappy family[/ul][/li]But, families above other people, [ul][li]A happy family[/li][li]An unhappy family[/ul][/li]Actually it’s a little more involved. You see, most business executives are men, and business executive men with families stereo-typically know that their wives and children will leave them if they get fired. Also, losing money for your company will get you fired. So for at least some of these people, the calculus is like this: [ul][li]My family doesn’t leave me[/li][li]My family leaves me[/ul][/li]And I think the answer is clear. Nevermind that a male executive with a family had a temporary lapse in moral judgement. The NBA was absolutely in the moral right to issue an apology. ~Max, attempting to be a satirist ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/73 "2019-10-10T01:05:10Z")
…and failing ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/74 "2019-10-10T01:11:03Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > …and failing It wasn’t that bad. He just needs more practice. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/75 "2019-10-10T02:46:48Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > This is very much indeed about political correctness. There are three topics that China generally works very hard to stifle any talk about - sometimes dubbed “The three T’s - Tibet, Taiwan and Tienanmen.” (Hong Kong is also now joining that list.) They are, generally, the most politically-incorrect topics that one could talk about within China. Now, it’s not remarkable at all that the CCP would clamp down within its own borders, but when Western companies and governments and scholars bend over backwards to accommodate Beijing on this, that’s caving in to China-PC. Sheesh, this has nothing to do with political correctness. China is about the least politically correct country on earth. It’s plain and simple: China is asserting itself as a global power, and its leveraging its financial power to hit where it hurts. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/76 "2019-10-10T04:19:44Z")
A boycott movement by gamers against Activision/Blizzard is [gaining steam. Lots of WoW, Overwatch, Hearthstone gamers quitting.](https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/8/20904972/blizzard-boycott-campaign-hearthstone-hong-kong-blitzchung-china) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/77 "2019-10-10T11:10:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll second the quibble that this is “PC”. Government censorship is entirely different than PC-ness. Agreed, PC is a form of censorship that you may like. What people are doing WRT China is a form of censorship that you do not like. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/78 "2019-10-10T11:13:26Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Protesting a proposed speaker is not mob violence. Agreed, they mostly just threaten violence to trigger a hecklers veto. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/79 "2019-10-10T11:19:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This is offtopic and a hijack of this thread. No more of this here. > > [/moderating] Oops, just saw this ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2019, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478/80 "2019-10-10T11:20:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This is sucking up to the boss. This is not offending somebody because you fear they will retaliate against you. To some extent this is the same dynamic we see in academic PC culture and liberal orthodoxy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-allowing-china-to-dictate-what-we-western-nations-do-or-say/841478.md?page=5)