# Political Correctness and Hate Speech Poll **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 30, 2020, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368 "2020-08-30T13:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/61 "2020-09-03T12:56:53Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Yeah, I wanted to see if my understanding was wrong and get some different people’s opinions. > > But I never thought PC was a generic term for caring about the feelings of everyone. Rather I thought it’s a particular way of not hurting the feelings of (possibly) disadvantaged people. So if you don’t care about hurting people’s feelings in general, why would you care about the feelings of disadvantaged people? Because the entire point is to help disadvantaged people. It’s not some generic rule that you must be polite to everyone in ever, no matter how big an asshole they are. > [@](#): > > Also, LHOD wasn’t talking about people who argue it’s okay to be assholes to the disadvantaged in the bit I quoted. He was talking about people who _unintentionally_ use problematic language and get corrected. No. He’s not. He’s talking about people who get mad when they get politely corrected. People who get mad that they are not supposed to say the word “gypped.” People who want to say it anyways, even though they now know it is offensive. Here is the quote: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If someone uses (for example) the word “gyp” to describe being ripped off, I might say, “Hey, I don’t want to make a big deal, and I used to use that word, but you maybe should realize it’s based on an ethnic stereotype of gypsies, so maybe use ‘ripped off’ instead?” > > And that’s how virtually every confrontation I’ve heard around _unintentional_ use of problematic language has gone. If someone is so fragile that they can’t stand even that, the problem isn’t with political correctness. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Above you said "people hate political correctness because the term is defined as being too polite when you should be more direct. It’s equivalent to saying ‘Sometimes it’s okay to be rude.’” So presumably you believe it’s possible to dislike political correctness without being an asshole? I think it’s possible to vote that political correctness is a problem in America due to that definition, yes. But I think those people are falling for a trick. The demonization of political correctness is part of the culture war. It creates this concept that it’s a greater wrong to be over-accommodating to those who are disadvantaged than to be under-accommodating, when the exact opposite is true. > [@](#): > > Also, how did you vote in the polls, if you don’t mind me asking? I actually forgot there were polls, as I decided to read the thread first. But I will vote as follows: No, Political correctness is not a problem in America. I cannot think of a single instance where someone being too polite to the disadvantaged has caused significant problems, but I can think of the opposite. Yes, hate speech is a problem in America. Open, blatant bigotry still exists and causes harm. And it is not being “politically correct” to be against that. I have no answers for the other questions since I already read the answers. Also, I would have just been blind guessing if I had answered them before I read the answers, anyways. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/62 "2020-09-03T13:17:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because the entire point is to help disadvantaged people. How does it help disadvantaged people? Sure, it makes you feel like you’re doing something, but it doesn’t solve any of the real problems that make people disadvantaged. A few of them are about avoiding slurs but most is just nit-picky stuff. > [@BigT](#): > > No. He’s not. He’s talking about people who get mad when they get politely corrected. People who get mad that they are not supposed to say the word “gypped.” **People who want to say it anyways, even though they now know it is offensive.** Now you’re adding stuff that wasn’t there in the example. This has happened repeatedly in this thread. I try to talk about people who are confused about what the correct terms are and feel like they can’t safely talk about important issues without being at best thought ignorant and at worst accused of racism or bigotry, and other people keep talking about bigots who want to knowingly insult the disadvantaged (and most of the disadvantaged are also bigots if we take this to its logical conclusion). > [@BigT](#): > > I think it’s possible to vote that political correctness is a problem in America due to that definition, yes. But I think those people are falling for a trick. The demonization of political correctness is part of the culture war. It creates this concept that it’s a greater wrong to be over-accommodating to those who are disadvantaged than to be under-accommodating, when the exact opposite is true. You’re ignoring the fact that political correctness has costs as well as benefits. Maybe you don’t think the costs are very large, but then neither are the benefits in most cases. > [@BigT](#): > > I have no answers for the other questions since I already read the answers. Also, I would have just been blind guessing if I had answered them before I read the answers, anyways. Fair enough. Were you surprised by the answers? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/63 "2020-09-03T14:17:30Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > Because the entire point is to help disadvantaged people. > > How does it help disadvantaged people? Sure, it makes you feel like you’re doing something, but it doesn’t solve any of the real problems that make people disadvantaged. A few of them are about avoiding slurs but most is just nit-picky stuff. Because it means you have to care about how they feel. And that is the ultimate problem behind everything else: people not caring about the feelings of those who are different from them. If you care about others, you stop being able to justify all the other ways you treat them. And all it requires is treating them the same way you would other people. People make it much harder than it actually is. > [@](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > No. He’s not. He’s talking about people who get mad when they get politely corrected. People who get mad that they are not supposed to say the word “gypped.” **People who want to say it anyways, even though they now know it is offensive.** > > Now you’re adding stuff that wasn’t there in the example. No, I’m not. I spelling out the conclusion to you since you didn’t seem to get it. If someone gets mad that they were corrected, even politely, then that means they think they shouldn’t be corrected. So they won’t change what they do. People who will change will accept polite correction. Only those who won’t change get mad. > [@](#): > > This has happened repeatedly in this thread. I try to talk about people who are confused about what the correct terms are and feel like they can’t safely talk about important issues without being at best thought ignorant and at worst accused of racism or bigotry, and other people keep talking about bigots who want to knowingly insult the disadvantaged No, he talked about those people in the top part of his quote. They are the ones who will change what they say. They’re happy to learn what they’re supposed to do so they won’t come off as ignorant. I also did not leave these people out. They are included in the people who think being against political correctness means that it’s okay to be rude sometimes. You already said they want to say the right thing. They just don’t know what it is. So why would they object to being corrected politely? It just isn’t that big a deal. All of us didn’t know what to say at one point. As long as you respond to correction, it’s fine. You get labeled a bigot only if you refuse to listen. Not if you make a single mistake and then respond well to correction. The people who face problems are those who refuse to listen. And to refuse to listen means you don’t care. [quote] > [@BigT](#): > > I think it’s possible to vote that political correctness is a problem in America due to that definition, yes. But I think those people are falling for a trick. The demonization of political correctness is part of the culture war. It creates this concept that it’s a greater wrong to be over-accommodating to those who are disadvantaged than to be under-accommodating, when the exact opposite is true. You’re ignoring the fact that political correctness has costs as well as benefits. Maybe you don’t think the costs are very large, but then neither are the benefits in most cases.[/quote] The benefits are huge, as I already said. But, if you don’t believe me, then consider this: which political party thinks being PC is bad? And which political party has all of the minorities? Or just look at what minorities themselves say. The things that are politically correct are things they have said they find important. Otherwise we wouldn’t care about them. And the downsides are small. The pretend downsides, where you think something horrible will happen to you for a single mistake, are kinda big. But the real life ones aren’t. In real life, you’ll be corrected. And you’ll change. It’s hard to get us to have sympathy for the people who can’t figure it out when the rest of us all did. If you’re too scared to just talk to people then learn in othe ways. Read a book. Google an article. Ask on an anonymous forum. Give a shit and actively try to educate yourself in some way. And then, when you do get out there and try, be willing to accept correction. It’s hard to be someone who was previously clueless and learned and then be sympathetic to those who aren’t trying to learn. If you don’t try, then it’s hard to think you actually care. > [@](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > I have no answers for the other questions since I already read the answers. Also, I would have just been blind guessing if I had answered them before I read the answers, anyways. > > Fair enough. Were you surprised by the answers? Not for the first question, for the reason I said above. But I was pleasantly surprised for the second question. I thought more people would reflexively see the concept of hate speech as being opposed to freedom of speech. It means we’re making progress. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/64 "2020-09-03T15:17:03Z")
What I find fascinating is how most of the people complaining bitterly about ‘political correctness’ completely ignore the conservative flavor. The military and intelligence agencies like to talk about ‘enhanced interrogation’ and police like to talk about ‘pain compliance techniques’ when what they are really talking about is straight-up torture. Calling chemical weapons ‘tear gas’ or ‘pepper spray’, or metal baton rounds with a thin coating of rubber ‘rubber bullets’ to downplay their seriousness is also common. People who strive to deny human rights to LGBT people in the form of marriage cloak it as ‘defense of traditional marriage’, and in general refer to ‘human rights for gay people’ as ‘having the gay agenda shoved down our throats’. Reducing dependence on fossil fuels is the ‘war on coal’. Back in the early 2000s there was a lot of right-wing cancel culture, notably french fries were renamed ‘Freedom Fries’ in congress’s cafeterias as an absurd backlash for France not supporting the war, Bill Maher had advertisers leave and his show canceled for saying that Americans were ‘cowards’ for hurling cruise missiles from 2000 miles away, and when they spoke out against the war the Dixie Chicks were suddenly verboten on country radio and former fans burned their albums. There’s also double standards, for example flying a Mexican flag is considered being a traitor to America, but waving a Confederate flag is being a patriot celebrating ‘heritage’. When people answer a simple question like ‘is political correctness a problem’, they may well be referring to the ‘freedom fries’ and ‘enhanced interrogation’ version, and not the ‘don’t tell racial jokes at the office, Bob’ version. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/65 "2020-09-03T15:35:24Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > When people answer a simple question like ‘is political correctness a problem’, they may well be referring to the ‘freedom fries’ and ‘enhanced interrogation’ version, and not the ‘don’t tell racial jokes at the office, Bob’ version. Logically speaking, they could be. But in the modern United States, it’s almost exclusively used as a slur against the political left, and is almost never used to refer to military newspeak or wacky right-wing jingoism. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/66 "2020-09-03T16:24:02Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > The military and intelligence agencies like to talk about ‘enhanced interrogation’ and police like to talk about ‘pain compliance techniques’ when what they are really talking about is straight-up torture. Some people may conflate this with PC but it’s a completely different linguistic operation. PC takes slurs and insults and converts them into neutral accuracy. The military, corporations, and other big groups take neutral accuracy and converts it into obfuscation. The latter is a perverted branch of euphemism, and PC, as said earlier, is not euphemism. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/67 "2020-09-03T17:14:02Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Some people may conflate this with PC but it’s a completely different linguistic operation. > > PC takes slurs and insults and converts them into neutral accuracy. The military, corporations, and other big groups take neutral accuracy and converts it into obfuscation. > > The latter is a perverted branch of euphemism, and PC, as said earlier, is not euphemism. Interesting point. I hadn’t considered it that way. I have heard it called ‘patriotic correctness’ when the right does it. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/68 "2020-09-03T17:36:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because it means you have to care about how they feel. And that is the ultimate problem behind everything else: people not caring about the feelings of those who are different from them. If you care about others, you stop being able to justify all the other ways you treat them. > > And all it requires is treating them the same way you would other people. People make it much harder than it actually is. That kind of goes to what I was thinking. The only reason you’d care about political correctness is if you care about other people. But then there are a bunch of people in this thread saying their compatriots are mostly idiots, lacking in tact and empathy, or eager to spout slurs at all and sundry. I guess I think, or at least hope, that the majority are generally well intentioned and will sympathise with others once they understand their lives. Even if they start out with some fears and prejudices. It’s pretty dispiriting to see others apparently don’t share this view. If people are as bad as all that, there’s not much of a hope of building a better world. > [@BigT](#): > > No, I’m not. I spelling out the conclusion to you since you didn’t seem to get it. If someone gets mad that they were corrected, even politely, then that means they think they shouldn’t be corrected. So they won’t change what they do. > > People who will change will accept polite correction. Only those who won’t change get mad. I disagree with this. People don’t like to be corrected, however gently. It’s human nature. That doesn’t mean they won’t still try to change (even if only to avoid being corrected again!) But I think the fear of looking ignorant does put some people off speaking… and please don’t say that’s a good thing. People who aren’t well educated or particularly smart can still have important things to say. > [@BigT](#): > > Or just look at what minorities themselves say. The things that are politically correct are things they have said they find important. Otherwise we wouldn’t care about them. I did. In the survey every single race agreed political correctness was a problem. And I know of a couple of cases where the people concerned objected to the politically correct terms that had been created for them. Even in the other thread I started, we have iiandyiiii saying he prefers ‘Jew’ to ‘Jewish’ - obviously no one consulted him before decreeing the latter is preferable. Or look at Larry\_Borgia’s story where the white people objected to using a Tagalog name for the bar, while the Filipina didn’t care. It makes me wonder who comes up with these terms and why they think they can speak for everyone. Sorry if I missed anything, got to go. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/69 "2020-09-03T18:06:34Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > But then there are a bunch of people in this thread saying their compatriots are mostly idiots, lacking in tact and empathy, or eager to spout slurs at all and sundry. No there aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/70 "2020-09-03T18:27:45Z")
I’m torn between terse answers being all that such distortions need in response, and thinking a fuller response might be helpful. Let’s try the fuller response. I said that a lot of people are goddamned stupid, and I stand by that. DemonTree wants to make some sort of smug point about that, that I lack the faith in humanity that she has, and that I’m probably why Trump will win or something. Stuff and nonsense. Look: a lot of people _are_ goddamned stupid. There’s a reason why most middle school propaganda units teach that “appeal to popularity” is a fallacy, and the OP is suffused in an appeal to popularity. Noting that 80% of people think PC is a problem doesn’t mean that PC is a problem. A lot of people lack tact and empathy. A lot of people have felt emboldened to spout bigoted slurs over the past four years. Of course these things are true; and pretending that we’re a nation of saints means we blind ourselves to the real danger we’re in, of losing our fragile and flawed democracy to a rule of fear and intimidation. And accusations of political correctness are _part of that campaign of fear and intimidation_. There’s a huge desire on the right to act like it’s political correctness that scares people, but nobody is genuinely and realistically scared by it. But nobody said that _most_ people are idiots, that _most_ people lack tact or empathy, that _most_ people are bigots. That may or may not be true, but misrepresenting a thread is only a good tactic when you’re defending an indefensible position. And even if you believe that most people ARE bigots, what of it? Certainly there have been times and places in which most members of specific cultures held deeply terrible beliefs, whether you’re talking about Virginian attitudes toward slavery in the 1700s or Spanish attitudes toward non-Christians in the 1500s or Aztec attitudes toward human sacrifice in the 1400s. America isn’t exceptional. It’s possible that the vast swath of us have terrible and wrong beliefs. If that’s the case, the best thing to do isn’t to tsk sadly at people who point it out, suggesting that they’re gonna get Trump elected if they open their mouths. The best thing to do is to acknowledge those bad beliefs and work to change them. The right’s focus on political correctness is an attempt to prevent anyone from acknowledging those bad beliefs, an attempt to prevent any change. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/71 "2020-09-03T18:47:05Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > That kind of goes to what I was thinking. The only reason you’d care about political correctness is if you care about other people. But then there are a bunch of people in this thread saying their compatriots are mostly idiots, lacking in tact and empathy, or eager to spout slurs at all and sundry. I guess I think, or at least hope, that the majority are generally well intentioned and will sympathise with others once they understand their lives. Even if they start out with some fears and prejudices. > > It’s pretty dispiriting to see others apparently don’t share this view. If people are as bad as all that, there’s not much of a hope of building a better world. For me it’s the same reason why i’m intolerant to the intolerant. The beliefs that bigots express have been taught to them all their lives and trying to argue fairly with them is pissing in the wind, so why bother. There are a lot of people who won’t change for anything, so better to alienate them from society so they can do as little harm as possible. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I disagree with this. People don’t like to be corrected, however gently. It’s human nature. That doesn’t mean they won’t still try to change (even if only to avoid being corrected again!) But I think the fear of looking ignorant does put some people off speaking… and please don’t say that’s a good thing. People who aren’t well educated or particularly smart can still have important things to say. He is right. For example when I realize (or am confronted with the realization) that a term I’ve been using is harmful, I try to stop myself from using it. “Gyp” is an example of that, I’ve been trying to not say terms like that. Or “illegal immigrant”, which I’ve stopped using because I realized it dehumanizes immigrants, so I say undocumented immigrants (or residents) now. But then I try to be sensitive to those things, plenty of people don’t and don’t care to. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I did. In the survey every single race agreed political correctness was a problem. And I know of a couple of cases where the people concerned objected to the politically correct terms that had been created for them. Even in the other thread I started, we have iiandyiiii saying he prefers ‘Jew’ to ‘Jewish’ - obviously no one consulted him before decreeing the latter is preferable. Or look at Larry\_Borgia’s story where the white people objected to using a Tagalog name for the bar, while the Filipina didn’t care. It makes me wonder who comes up with these terms and why they think they can speak for everyone. > > Sorry if I missed anything, got to go. This also begs the question what do they consider PC? I’m pretty sure a Black person wouldn’t think it was PC that white people shouldn’t use the n-word or other similar racial slurs. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/72 "2020-09-03T20:21:08Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Some people may conflate this with PC but it’s a completely different linguistic operation. > > PC takes slurs and insults and converts them into neutral accuracy. The military, corporations, and other big groups take neutral accuracy and converts it into obfuscation. > > The latter is a perverted branch of euphemism, and PC, as said earlier, is not euphemism. This is incorrect. “Political Correctness” was first coined to refer to enforcing people following the party line of Communist Party of the Soviet Union, and using the terminology that the party preferred to euphemize things that others might find distasteful and to confirm to ‘ideology’. The linguistic operation of euphemizing in order to avoid offending sensibility is in fact the original meaning, and the practice of calling ‘don’t use slurs’ political correctness is a distortion of that. Also, if PC is ONLY turning slurs into “neutral accuracy”, then an awful lot of what people call PC (even in this thread) don’t qualify as PC. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/73 "2020-09-03T20:47:36Z")
The original usage of a term may not be the same as the modern usage of a term. To be honest, I’m not sure I understand the rest of your post. Euphemisms did avoid offense but those uses were not in any way connected to the modern meaning of PC. Avoiding slurs is the most recent shift in the meaning of PC, which is why it is a favorite target of the right. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/74 "2020-09-03T20:55:45Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > In the survey every single race agreed political correctness was a problem. No, the real problem here is that you have taken one survey and built an entire case around it, falling back on those favorable statistics every time you are called on your generalities. And you do that even though I have pointed out that those statistics are so suspect that not even the original article you cited wants to be held to them. “But since the survey question did not define political correctness for respondents, we cannot be sure what, exactly, the 80 percent of Americans who regard it as a problem have in mind.” This entire argument is increasingly reminiscent of those of truthers and birthers and moon hoaxers, whose adherents also cling to one piece of evidence, usually totally wrong, and trot it out in every post without every going out to find other independent evidence for their argument. If you want people to take your case for PC seriously, I suggest you find some survey where PC was, you know, defined. Maybe even two, since two is far better than one. Otherwise I think you’ve hammered your nail through the floor and you’re hitting nothing with your hammer. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/75 "2020-09-08T06:10:09Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > If you’ve been following the perversion of the meaning and purpose of political correctness from the beginning, as I have, What is that history (in short)? A link, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/76 "2020-09-08T06:21:43Z")
My problem with “political correctness” isn’t with “being careful about how you word things”, it’s with how the meaning of words keeps slip’n’sliding. By co-opting different words to use as euphemisms, those words become ambiguous and often end up meaning the euphemism. When she was alive, Marilyn was curvy. Now curvy means extremely obese. And like that one, so many other words. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/77 "2020-09-08T10:51:38Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > My problem with “political correctness” isn’t with “being careful about how you word things”, it’s with how the meaning of words keeps slip’n’sliding. Isn’t that less of a problem with politically correct language, and more of a problem with human language? You get new technologies, new entertainments, new slang, new government propaganda, new corporate propaganda (“marketing”), new social norms, new people. Language is in constant flux. I don’t see any reason to single out a subsection of new social norms for condemnation. As to your example, it’s kind of interesting. “Curvy” used to mean “woman with a round figure in chest and butt, but otherwise kind of skinny.” It was a positive adjective used to describe certain women, with an understanding that the woman needed to fit certain beauty norms in addition to the straightforward description. Now it’s used to mean “woman with a round figure,” and can be positively applied to a larger range of women, without the implicit agreement that they meet those other beauty norms. It’s not (as you suggest) “extremely obese,” as many women who aren’t obese have it applied to them. Isn’t this change more accurate? Doesn’t it reflect a positive change in social norms? Haven’t we had _decades_ to get used to it? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/78 "2020-09-08T11:25:06Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Now curvy means extremely obese. Does it? Seems safest to avoid describing anyone altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/79 "2020-09-08T17:40:43Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > What is that history (in short)? A link, perhaps. [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness) has a good article on its history. (Isn’t it past time to stop denigrating Wikipedia’s summaries? They’re not perfect or all-encompassing, but I find them mostly excellent for collating facts.) > [@Nava](#): > > When she was alive, Marilyn was curvy. Now curvy means extremely obese. And like that one, so many other words. In 40s mysteries, I often encountered references to chorus girls as “plump.” That never made sense, especially when I saw chorus girls in old movies. Finally dawned on me that by using “plump” they meant “curvy” or even “busty.” It was a compliment rather than the negative connotation it has today. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368/80 "2020-09-08T19:09:49Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Does it? Seems safest to avoid describing anyone altogether. Thank you. Keep saying this, it needs to become part of culture, it is civility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-hate-speech-poll/919368.md?page=5)