# Political Correctness and Racial Profiling **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639 "2010-11-23T05:38:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![smileybastard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@smileybastard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smileybastard)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/81 "2010-11-25T16:55:54Z")
Cage of freedom That’s our prison Where the jailer and captive combine Cage of freedom Cast in power All the trappings of our own design Blind ambition Steals our reason We’re soon behind those invisible bars Song text taken from [stlyrics.com](http://stlyrics.com) On the inside Looking outside To make it safer we double the guard Cage of freedom There’s no escaping We fabricated a world of our own… Cage of freedom, growing smaller 'Til every wall now touches the skin Cage of freedom, filled with treason Changing sides as the losses begin Our suspicion tries escaping But they step up the security There’s no exit–there’s no entrance Remember how we swallowed the key? Cage of freedom, that’s our prison We fabricated this world on our own… Big brother Is there a bigger one watching you Or is there one smaller Who I should be watching too Infinite circles of Snakes eating their own tails For every one chasing Another is on the trail Is that a friend Can you tell, is he on your side? 'Cause I spy with my little eye Yet another spy… ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/82 "2010-11-25T16:58:55Z")
I just had a thought: It would be nice if the paranoid American fear-mongers who would trade any freedom they can for a granule of safety would get out more. I’m an American posting this message from a country with an active muslim seperatist insurgency, I am, minimum, 100x more likely to be killed by militant muslims right now than at any time in the USA. And you know what? I still go out to the mall, still drive around or take public transport and do all the same things I would do at home. There is no way that the risk of dying from a terrorist act at home (which in practice would be zero for the vast majority of the US anyway) is worth trading ANY freedoms, much less what we gave away without a whimper to the Patriot act. Living in fear is not living at all. ---
**Author:** ![smileybastard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@smileybastard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smileybastard)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/83 "2010-11-25T17:05:48Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > For foreigners entering the US, I’d look at their origin point, and if they’re from a nation considered hostile (Iran, Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, among others) to the US, I’d deny their ticket. In regard to domestic travel, I’d analyze their backround (YES, including religion!), any foreign ties they may have, etc. > > Now, I understand if this makes people uncomfortable, but WE ARE AT WAR!, and we can’t just drop trow, and take it! America is not at war with Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran or Syria. If you enacted this then you would give the terrorists a new tool. They would attack the US from nationalist from many countries which would oblige America from letting nationals from there in. It would cripple the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/84 "2010-11-25T18:42:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble > That does mean that more muslim and darker skinned people are likely to be targeted for investigation. We should be prepared to accept that. > [@AK84](#): > > Doubtless the “We” in the above does not include “muslim and darker skinned people”. If the majority of the threat comes from muslims and populations of whose skin is dark then yes, of course more of those are likely to be targeted for investigation. Those who happen to share those traits either accept that or accept that the concept of any type of rational intelligence gathering is pointless. You may be misunderstanding though. I am not saying that people are targeted\* just because\* they are dark skinned and/or muslim, merely that if the intelligence services are doing their job then obviously the majority of people being scrutinised will have those traits. The point being that this is only the situation as it stands at the moment, as the threat and the tactics change, the profiles should change as well. The spotlight could well swing to caucasian converts as has been previously mentioned. We can (and should) demand a racially and ethnically balanced approach in the security line-up as I consider it a charade anyway. But we can’t treat all groups equally behind the scenes because we know for certain that not all groups present an equal threat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/85 "2010-11-25T18:53:25Z")
What races do we know for sure are not a threat? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/86 "2010-11-25T19:41:17Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > You are blowing this way out of proportion. > > In a thread about racial profiling for Islamic terrorism, in which people are making the common mistake of confusing “Arab” with “Muslim,” I am raising the extremely relevant point that there are Muslims who are physically the same as the white, European majority of the United States. And these Muslims can come from countries such as Bosnia and Albania. (Whose inhabitants were ‘white’ enough that they were accepted by the Nazis, hence the reference to the SS units in World War II, my point being that these individuals were considered white enough to be honorary ‘Aryans.’) > > If you still don’t understand this and insist on being difficult about it, sorry, there’s nothing else that I can do. While correcting the common mistake you are making several grave ones and now for sure I can tell, on purpose. One of them is reinforcing the negative stereotype that all Muslims are the same, lurking terrorists and no matter what and regardless of where they come from you will find them willing to perform acts of terrorism for one reason only, their religion, and skin colour notwithstanding. It`s funny, if similar generalization would be made about other group, say Jews or Blacks, there would be such an uproar over it. But, there`s seem to be credible warranty on this specific group and anyone, I repeat anyone is apparently suspect. If that`s not bigotry, I don’t know what is. BTW, you dont have to do anything - I’m just letting you know (like you dont know) you’re bigot. You can’t just come to a public forum and spew your bigoted views of others and expect everone to nod in approval. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/87 "2010-11-25T21:11:19Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > BTW, you dont have to do anything - I’m just letting you know (like you dont know) you’re bigot. You can’t just come to a public forum and spew your bigoted views of others and expect everone to nod in approval. Knock it off. Do not turn this thread into a personal attack. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/88 "2010-11-26T00:00:34Z")
(Originally Posted by **Chief Pedant** ) _“In general, support for terrorism seems to be declining in the Islamic world, but it’s certainly not unusual to see support in the 10% range, even for suicide attacks against civilian populations.”_ > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > 10%? Big deal. I’m quite certain you could find 10% percent support in America for that too. Or for using nukes to eradicate everyone who irritates us. Or for converting the entire planet by force to Christianity. Or installing a fascist dictatorship complete with concentration camps for undesirables. Or pretty much any other crazy idea you care to think up. 10% is about as small a level of support you are going to find for anything short of cannibalism; there’s always a fringe. I have not seen such data. Do you have support for it? Note that the 10% number is on the low side; it was greater than 50% for Nigerian Muslim support of Osama bin Laden… In any case, given that the current terrorist threat for airplane travel is largely from within Muslim populations, I believe the notion that only a small absolute number of Muslims support terrorist agendas is incorrect. Even if one defines 10% as “fringe,” 10% of a billion people is 100 million people supporting terrorism against civilians as a legitimate weapon to advance one’s cause. As far as an equivalent percent of Westerners supporting your example of “using nukes to eradicate everyone who irritates us,” I’d support in principle the right of a country which accepts that as a legitimate fact to specially single out Westerners for profiled screening. The point here is not so much the numbers as it is the principle that (accurate) profiling increases security. That’s where the money is, and pretending that random screening is equally effective is not correct, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/89 "2010-11-26T00:08:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Let’s make it simple and ask the OP exactly what races/ethnicities should be allowed to walk freely through security. I don’t think the idea of “profiling” means no security screen at all for anyone not meeting the criteria. It seems to me the question is whether or not to single out specific groups for more intense screening. Because not even profiling ensures absolute accuracy to identify individuals at particular risk for doing harm, some level of screening for all is appropriate. I don’t understand how it is helpful to pretend that those who favor profiling are somehow of the opinion that certain races/ethnicities should be allowed to walk freely through security. I agree the use of the term “Racial Profiling” is unfortunate but I do not think the OP meant it that way. If it was meant that way, I have no interest in defending such a position. “Race,” per se, would be a useless category, as would “ethnicity” for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/90 "2010-11-26T00:27:45Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I don’t think the idea of “profiling” means no security screen at all for anyone not meeting the criteria. > > It seems to me the question is whether or not to single out specific groups for more intense screening. Because not even profiling ensures absolute accuracy to identify individuals at particular risk for doing harm, some level of screening for all is appropriate. > > I don’t understand how it is helpful to pretend that those who favor profiling are somehow of the opinion that certain races/ethnicities should be allowed to walk freely through security. I agree the use of the term “Racial Profiling” is unfortunate but I do not think the OP meant it that way. If it was meant that way, I have no interest in defending such a position. “Race,” per se, would be a useless category, as would “ethnicity” for the most part. Well, why don’t you walk us through it then. Here’s a scenario: A guy shows up at the airport. He has not been identified or flagged by mechanisms such as TIDES, the No Fly List, Secure Flight or any other intelligence or law-enforcement tracking or monitoring system. His booked flight itinerary doesn’t fall into a flaggable pattern (such as one-way tickets). He approaches the security area. What does the screener do? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/91 "2010-11-26T02:55:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Let’s make it simple and ask the OP exactly what races/ethnicities should be allowed to walk freely through security. Elves? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/92 "2010-11-26T03:22:26Z")
I’m not sure why people are making such a big deal about this. All we need is a national police force that keeps track of peoples’ race, religion, political beliefs, and acquaintances. After the fall of the Soviet Union and East Germany there is a large supply of highly trained people to take on the jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/93 "2010-11-26T04:39:13Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > While correcting the common mistake you are making several grave ones and now for sure I can tell, on purpose. One of them is reinforcing the negative stereotype that all Muslims are the same, lurking terrorists and no matter what and regardless of where they come from you will find them willing to perform acts of terrorism for one reason only, their religion, and skin colour notwithstanding. He has done nothing of the sort. You are completely and utterly misinterpreting his comments. He has not in any way insulted, demeaned or insinuated anything about Bosnians. He just used them as an example of how not all Muslims are brown-skinned Arabs ( never mind that not all Arabs are brown-skinned ) and that screening for brown-skinned Muslims does not in anyway eliminate any potential threat from Muslim terrorism. That’s it. He’s NOT saying that Bosnians themselves are PRONE to terrorism or are in anyway a more particular threat. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/94 "2010-11-26T05:35:46Z")
From “Islamic Terrorism and the Balkans - Congressional Research Service Report for Congress,” by Steven Woehrel, Specialist in European Affairs. ([Here.](http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/islamic_terrorism.htm#bosnia)) > [@](#): > > In cooperation with U.S. investigators, Bosnian authorities have investigated Islamic charities suspected of having ties with Bin Laden. In March 2002, Bosnian police raided Bosnian offices of the Benevolence International Foundation (BIF), which is headquartered in Illinois. Police found weapons, military manuals, a fraudulent passport, photographs of Bin Laden, and other items. BIF leader Enaam Arnaout, who was charged in US courts with concealing his relationship to al-Qaida, received an 11-year sentence, albeit for fraud, not on terrorism charges. A subsequent Bosnian raid on another group, a local branch of Saudi-based Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation, uncovered tapes calling for attacks on peacekeepers in Bosnia. Another raid, this time on the Sarajevo office of the Saudi High Commission for Relief, netted anti-Semitic and anti-American materials, as well as photos of U.S. military installations.8 Other Al Qaeda fronts, such as Vazir (Al-Haramain’s successor organization) and the Global Relief Fund were also shut down. In 2004, the Bosnian government disrupted the operations of al-Furqan (a.k.a. Sirat Istikamet), al-Haramain and al-Masjed al-Aqsa Charity Foundation, and Taibah International, all Al Qaeda-linked organizations. Experts note that when some Al Qaeda front organizations are closed down, others often spring up to replace them. > > Bosnian officials have been charged with providing aid to terrorists. In November 2004, the Bosnian government charged fifteen former Bosnian officials with illegally helping around 700 former foreign Islamic fighters in Bosnia gain Bosnian citizenship from 1995-2000.9 In 2005, six former Federation officials went on trial for their role in helping to establish an alleged terrorist training camp in Bosnia with Iran’s help during the mid-1990s. There has definitely been terrorist activity going on in Bosnia. In this case, the Bosnian government is actually trying to take action against it, although others in the government seem to have been complicit in it. The point is, I am not being bigoted against Bosnia, I’m just stating a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/95 "2010-11-26T05:39:14Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I don’t think the idea of “profiling” means no security screen at all for anyone not meeting the criteria. > > It seems to me the question is whether or not to single out specific groups for more intense screening. What groups are safe not to single out for intense screening? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/96 "2010-11-26T05:44:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What groups are safe not to single out for intense screening? People who aren’t terrorists, of course. Duh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/97 "2010-11-26T11:14:17Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Well, why don’t you walk us through it then. Here’s a scenario: A guy shows up at the airport. He has not been identified or flagged by mechanisms such as TIDES, the No Fly List, Secure Flight or any other intelligence or law-enforcement tracking or monitoring system. His booked flight itinerary doesn’t fall into a flaggable pattern (such as one-way tickets). > > He approaches the security area. What does the screener do? I’m not pretending to be some sort of security expert. I am only suggesting that, in my opinion, it’s fine to “profile” people for security reasons, and that not everyone approaching the security area is likely to carry the same risk. If there is no background data on a particular individual which puts him into a profilable category, a brief face to face encounter with an expert would be an approach I’d expect to be more effective. Behavioural patterns; appearance; answers to a variety of pointed questions…everyone is subjected to the same basic screen and a subset is selected out for further questioning based on their response or whether or not they fit a pattern type. This is quite a different approach from the mechanical one I see TSA performing at airports, where every individual is treated to an identical and mechanized routine (and, in my view, one carried out by individuals with rather less education and training than anything approaching an expert). ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/98 "2010-11-26T16:15:30Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > everyone is subjected to the same basic screen and a subset is selected out for further questioning based on their response or **whether or not they fit a pattern type.** (bolding mine) But if I tell you that the weak point in airline security (and in fact, American national security in general) is NOT airline passengers or their baggage, then why bother being racially descriminatory to people based on YOUR interpretation of their race or religion? This would be like a grocery store making blacks put up a safety deposit on their side entrance, but everyone could just enter the main door without any limitations. In other words, racist and disgusting, and also a stupid waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/99 "2010-11-26T20:10:32Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Behavioural patterns; appearance; answers to a variety of pointed questions…everyone is subjected to the same basic screen and a subset is selected out for further questioning based on their response or whether or not they fit a pattern type. What is the “appearance” criteria that will flag someone as fitting the pattern type? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639/100 "2010-11-26T20:42:22Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > What is the “appearance” criteria that will flag someone as fitting the pattern type? I’m not interested in writing a treatise on how to profile. I’m interested in defending the fact that it’s OK to do so. Were I to offer an example–not intended to be comprehensive, or the sum of how to profile–I might suggest that [this one](http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/teenage-mum-used-baby-as-ashtray/story-e6freuy9-1225783149623) could probably be dispensed with after one or two questions, and [these guys](http://usahitman.com/911-truth-the-911-hijackers-are-alive/) (pay no attention to the site; it was the first hit for images) probably need a little further questioning. But as I mentioned earlier, if a white supremacist group fits intelligence profiling, then [these guys](http://www.andreaharner.com/archives/2008/12/omg_white_supre.html) need a little more attention. In my opinion, it’s pretty amateurish to pretend an expertly trained security agent would not have any chance of singling out subgroups more likely to contain individuals who are threats. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-and-racial-profiling/561639.md?page=6)