# Political Correctness in our universities **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108 "2018-04-25T15:58:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/141 "2018-05-02T00:37:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So, you’re good with the government punishing people for saying opinions you don’t like, am I understanding you correctly? > > As long as you understand that your position is at odds with free speech as we understand it here in the United States, I think we’ve made ourselves clear to each other. I do not know. Perhaps even offensive speech should be tolerated until it crosses into abuse and harassment. Perhaps erring on the side of Freedom is a better policy. In Europe only extremely hateful speech – like joking about Holocaust is penalized. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/142 "2018-05-02T01:00:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s weird, in context of previous discussions on this very topic, that specifics elude you. > > But here’s a handy reference [Spotlight on Speech Codes 2016](https://www.thefire.org/spotlight-on-speech-codes-2016/#_ftn11). Speech codes have been found to be unconstitutional time and again by courts. Yet, universities continue to have and enforce them. Most likely due to the cynical calculation that most students will be sufficiently intimidated and/or lack the resources to mount a challenge. That’s very broad, not specific. Which speech codes in particular, using what language, do you have a problem with? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/143 "2018-05-02T01:04:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s very broad, not specific. Which speech codes in particular, using what language, do you have a problem with? All of them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/144 "2018-05-02T01:10:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > All of them. So you have a problem with schools sanctioning threats? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/145 "2018-05-02T01:12:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Threats are against the law. We have police. Though, the police do nothing when the threats are coming from left wing rioters. Still a body count of zero for those “left wing rioters”. Whodathunk? Please, I would like to subscribe to your “ANTIFA Pearl Clutchers Anonymous” newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/146 "2018-05-02T01:16:33Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Still a body count of zero for those “left wing rioters”. Whodathunk? Please, I would like to subscribe to your “ANTIFA Pearl Clutchers Anonymous” newsletter. Antifa aren’t the only left wing goons. And Antifa’s ineptitude is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/147 "2018-05-02T01:18:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you have a problem with schools sanctioning threats? Is that a violation of current law? If so, let the police deal with threats. Though we have seen the police do nothing even during a riot so i’m not sure of the utility of police. Universities are not law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/148 "2018-05-02T01:24:22Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I am not saying from legal perspective. I am saying that any decent person would find shouting down of Christina Hoff Sommers morally reprehensible. She did not insult anyone – she just spoke about problems rarely discussed on campus. Given that she’s been protested numerous times before, and the group that invited her was condemned by “the Portland National Lawyers Guild, Minority Law Students Association, Black Law Students Association, Women’s Law Caucus, Immigration Student Group, Jewish Law Society, Latino Law Society, OutLaw, and Lewis & Clark Young Democratic Socialists of America,” I’d wager she’s not exactly a popular figure in the first place. Granted, all I know is that she feels feminism accomplished everything it needed decades ago and contemporary feminism is simply being used to create privilege for women. She’s roughly the gender version of those that cry of the systemic oppression of white people in today’s society. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/149 "2018-05-02T01:25:41Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Antifa aren’t the only left wing goons. And Antifa’s ineptitude is irrelevant. Alright then, ANY body count for left wing goons? Because we’ve gone over this - one side of the spectrum is actively trying to kill people, while the other one, well…doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/150 "2018-05-02T01:34:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Is that a violation of current law? If so, let the police deal with threats. Though we have seen the police do nothing even during a riot so i’m not sure of the utility of police. Universities are not law enforcement. That didn’t answer the question. You said your have a problem with the entirety of every college’s speech codes, and I’m drilling down on that. Do you have a problem with colleges having regulations that sanction students, including the possibility of being expelled, if they make threats? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/151 "2018-05-02T01:47:00Z")
News flash: Free speech has been discovered to not be the only right that exists. Second news flash: I am free to take a shit when I need to, but not free to do so into your boots, because my right to take a shit conflicts with your right to use your boots in peace. In other words, every right is limited by someone else’s right to something else. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/152 "2018-05-02T02:05:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > All of them. This is useless. Let’s look at one such speech code, which your cite fusses over: Johns Hopkins says that “Rude, disrespectful behavior is unwelcome and will not be tolerated.” This sentence alone seems to be the basis for their condemnation of Johns Hopkins (although their materials are so abstruse that it’s difficult to tell). And yes, preventing “rude, disrespectful behavior” within the university setting is a limit on free speech. **But it is not a limit on substantive debate**. Indeed, despite the fussing of FIRE, JHU clearly makes this distinction: > [@Johns Hopkins](#): > > A professional and respectful exchange of views is integral to creating a positive environment for learning, teaching, and research. Each of us has a critical role to play in cultivating a climate of intellectual diversity, dignity , and respect . But academic freedom necessarily permits the expression of views that even the vast majority of the community may find misguided, ignorant , or offensive . The appropriate response to such statements in an academic setting is not to censor or punish , but to challenge, criticize, and persuade How do I know this? Because FIRE linked to this policy in the course of excoriating JHU. **octopus** , do you stand with FIRE, in saying that universities must allow not only ignorant, misguided, and offensive views on campus, but must allow them to be put forth in rude, disrespectful fashions? Do you make similar complaints about “speech codes” in places like courtrooms, or public hospitals, or legislative buildings? This is why FIRE is such a garbage organization. It’s one thing to call for free speech on campus, in terms of protecting the right of people to argue respectfully and civilly for shitty positions. It’s another thing to suggest that universities, unlike most other government institutions, must allow assholes to disrupt their functions with shitty rude behavior at the employees and clients of the institution. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/153 "2018-05-02T03:00:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Despite the panic in many conservative blogs, I don’t see this actually happening on American campuses. No one is going to jail for speech. Some people are getting criticized, which is part of free speech. No, they don’t go to jail, because there is no imaginary LAW against “hate speech”. But students do suffer consequences, from suspension to expulsion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/154 "2018-05-02T03:02:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No, they don’t go to jail, because there is no imaginary LAW against “hate speech”. But students do suffer consequences, from suspension to expulsion. Okay. Have some examples to share so we can look at the specifics? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/155 "2018-05-02T03:05:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What sanctions, and what expression? If a student threatens another student, or says they shouldn’t exist or be in the country, then that might violate a reasonable code of conduct. How in the world is saying that someone who is here illegally shouldn’t be here speech that can reasonably run afoul of a code of conduct. The only way is if the code of conduct is a ridiculous piece of nonsense. You realize that you’re arguing that the stating of actual FACTS should be subject to being controlled?! In a place of learning?!! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/156 "2018-05-02T03:15:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay. Have some examples to share so we can look at the specifics? From one quick Google search, from the first page: > **[Free Speech on Campus Is Under Attack](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-glaring-evidence-that-free-speech-is-threatened-on-campus/471825/)** > > A debate at Yale highlighted the disconnect between those who would downplay the problem, and the growing mass of evidence that they’re wrong. > **[Student at Brown Is Expelled Under a Rule Barring 'Hate Speech' (Published 1991)](https://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/12/us/student-at-brown-is-expelled-under-a-rule-barring-hate-speech.html)** > **[Another school uses a flimsy rationale to expel students for their speech |...](https://www.thecollegefix.com/another-school-uses-a-flimsy-rationale-to-expel-students-for-their-speech/)** > > Some incredibly dumb comments are a ‘threat to the well-being of the university community’? > **[There might be a big legal problem with the decision to expel 2 Oklahoma...](https://www.businessinsider.com/oklahoma-students-expelled-free-speech-first-amendment-2015-3)** > > The racist actions of University of Oklahoma students may be protected by the First Amendment. > **[University of Alabama may have violated First Amendment by kicking out racist...](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/01/23/university-alabama-may-have-violated-first-amendment-kicking-out-racist-student)** > > Civil liberties supporters want University of Alabama president to reverse expulsion of student who posted racist rants, saying her First Amendment rights were violated. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/157 "2018-05-02T03:23:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How in the world is saying that someone who is here illegally shouldn’t be here speech that can reasonably run afoul of a code of conduct. The only way is if the code of conduct is a ridiculous piece of nonsense. You realize that you’re arguing that the stating of actual FACTS should be subject to being controlled?! In a place of learning?!! That’s not exactly what I said. Further, do you have any evidence that such a code exists, and that anyone has been sanctioned for nothing more than expressing an opinion on immigration? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/158 "2018-05-02T03:40:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > From one quick Google search, from the first page: > > [The Mounting Threats to Free Speech on Campus - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-glaring-evidence-that-free-speech-is-threatened-on-campus/471825/) > > [https://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/12/us/student-at-brown-is-expelled-under-a-rule-barring-hate-speech.html](https://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/12/us/student-at-brown-is-expelled-under-a-rule-barring-hate-speech.html) > > [Another school uses a flimsy rationale to expel students for their speech | The College Fix](https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/21874/) > > [Oklahoma Students Expelled Free Speech First Amendment](http://www.businessinsider.com/oklahoma-students-expelled-free-speech-first-amendment-2015-3) > > [https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/01/23/university-alabama-may-have-violated-first-amendment-kicking-out-racist-student](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/01/23/university-alabama-may-have-violated-first-amendment-kicking-out-racist-student) The first appears to be an editorial article, and I didn’t see any specific reference to an actual incident of a student being sanctioned for hate speech. The second was a student expelled for shouting abuse at other students on campus, as well as repeated drinking violations and other behavior highly disrespectful to fellow students. Do you believe there should be no consequences for shouting racial slurs at others on campus? The third and fourth involved students advocating for the murder (lynching) of black people on a radio show and a video. Do you think there should be no school sanctions for advocacy of murder? The fifth involved a video of a student shouting abuse and racial slurs. Do you think there should be no school sanctions for shouting abuse and racial slurs on a video one posts to a public forum? The fifth is the only one I’m questionable on. From the article, she didn’t advocate violence or murder, just general hatred. Based on that article, I’m undecided and would want more info as far as whether it’s appropriate for a public university to sanction her. But all the others were pretty clearly very reasonably sanctioned, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/159 "2018-05-02T04:39:29Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Alright then, ANY body count for left wing goons? Because we’ve gone over this - one side of the spectrum is actively trying to kill people, while the other one, well…doesn’t. Stalin, Mao, and other left wing goons say “hi!” ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108/160 "2018-05-02T04:40:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No, they don’t go to jail, because there is no imaginary LAW against “hate speech”. But students do suffer consequences, from suspension to expulsion. You realize that no amount of cites are going to satisfy the constantly teleporting goalposts? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-in-our-universities/813108.md?page=9)