# Political Correctness Outside the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 13, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136 "2005-04-13T15:32:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/21 "2005-04-15T13:56:01Z")
> [@Fromage A Trois](#): > > I’ve noticed the same usage as **Captain Roscoe** in the UK, ie “tell it like it is”. Generally speaking a black person is referred to as black. An Indian person as Indian etc. That’s not to say there aren’t people who use derogatory terms, of course. Exactly. ‘Black’, ‘Indian’ etc. are used as something quite separate from nationality. The [2001 Census](http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=273) is a good place to get the ‘official’ terminology, including “Black Caribbean”, “British Asian”, etc. The principle of all these terms are that they are how a person chooses to identify themselves, not how they are identified by some external judgement or system. Plus, the ‘XYZ-American’ type of labelling seems to be something purely used in America. > [@](#): > > I remember when I was at school, about 10 years ago, the maths textbooks used asian names for all of the questions where it was necessary - “Sanjay has 10 apples and Rashid has 3”. They never used names like John or Mary, or anything European or African. It’s toned down nowadays, but there’s (quite rightly) a mix of all sorts of names used. Plus, I’d suggest the observation that they _never_ used names like John comes from not always noticing the occassions when they do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/22 "2005-04-15T14:18:03Z")
> [@Unintentionally Blank](#): > > Hmm, lessee. Membership in a ‘club’ well known for war atrocities and a universal hate of all that’s not whitebred… > > Label it any way you’d like and I’d expect we’d be against it based on it’s actions…That’s not being PC, that’s _actively_ preventing history from repeating. Hmm? Not sure I get what you’re after, here: I was just giving an example of restrictions on speech, based on politics (albeit hideous genocidal politics), outside of the US. I wasn’t taking a side as to whether this sort of political correctness is a good thing. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![violacrane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c57346/32.png) [@violacrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violacrane)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/23 "2005-04-15T15:03:37Z")
I’ve known one person describe himself as Anglo Indian (and I don’t know if he still does). In his case it _was_ a historical thing, both his parents descended from British Indian mixed marriages and hence were part of the Anglo Indian population in India before they moved to the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/24 "2005-04-16T15:39:51Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > There’s also “hafu”, though {Japlish for “half”}, if a child is half-Japanese. That one really pissed me off, I suppose because of the English connotations of half-caste or half-breed, but also because it’s applied as a noun with no further qualification - where we’d probably use an non-pejorative adjective, {“He’s half Japanese”}, “hafu” isn’t exactly an insult, but it’s pretty negatively loaded - “He is a hafu” means “He’s not pure Japanese”. Did I mention my son was half Japanese? You’re right. I’m surprised I forgot that one, since it bothers me as well, and it’s the only one that comes up as an issue between me and my wife. We don’t have kids yet, but I’ve let her know why “half” bothers me and tried to get her to switch to “half-[something].” Usually when she says it I just make jokes about having a baby torso rolling around the house. I don’t know if you’d call it a PC version, but I know a few in the gaijin community who refer to their Japanese-whatever kids as “doubles,” which bugs me almost as much. Not gonna use it. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/25 "2005-04-16T17:45:59Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > I’m curious as to how prevalient political correctness is outside of the United States. For example, if a black person lives in France, is he called an African-Frenchman? If someone from china lives in England, is he a Chinese-Englishman? In Canada, we mostly just use “black”. You sometimes hear African-Canadian if someone is going for heightened political correctness. In general, we go in less for hyphens. Our newspaper of record, _The Globe and Mail_, rarely mentions ethnicity unless it’s directly relevant, and sometimes not even then. For instance, Maher Arar, deported to Syria from the US, was almost never refered to as “an Arab-Canadian” – he was usually just “a Canadian.” Even suspected terrorists are usually just refered to as “Canadians,” if they have Canadian citizenship. Most other papers follow suit, though there are a few exceptions. I find that’s generally not the case in American media, where if a suspected terrorist is of an Arab background, that’s almost-always highlighted. The poet and professor George Elliot Clarke, who’s one of the most foremost intellectuals in this country on the subject race, makes distinctions between the subcultures of Afrocadian, African-Canadian, and African-American. “Africadian” refers to the centuries-old, established black community in the Maritimes, which Clarke himself is from. African-Canadian refers to the the established, local subcultures that grew up farther west. African-American is derivative, coming through American pop-culture, and is what Americans think of as black urban culture. That’s about all I know of Clarke’s theories so far, because I haven’t had a chance to study them in depth. Still, it’s probably a simplification even to suggest that there is _one_ African-American subculture across the US – without knowing as much about American history as I do about Canadian, I wouldn’t be surprised if there several. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Roscoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f6c823/32.png) [@Captain\_Roscoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Roscoe)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/26 "2005-04-16T19:54:07Z")
> [@Fromage A Trois](#): > > If I were to ask a black person where they’re from, I’m expecting an answer like “London” or “Newcastle” or “a small village near Plymouth”. I’m not asking because they’re black either - I’d ask a white person the same question. I agree with this. I didn’t mean for my post to imply that every innocent question leads to a lengthy discussion about heritage. It’s not like that at all. If someone asks where I’m from, I say ‘Sheffield’ or whatever. (I don’t live in Sheffield, but I am a notorious liar). I identify myself as English, or British maybe. It’s just that sometimes people asked for a more detailed explanation. Which I’m perfectly OK with. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/27 "2005-04-16T20:53:15Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Hmm? Not sure I get what you’re after, here: I was just giving an example of restrictions on speech, based on politics (albeit hideous genocidal politics), outside of the US. I wasn’t taking a side as to whether this sort of political correctness is a good thing. > > Daniel I think the OP was asking about political correctness as a cultural (and linguistic) phenomenom. But as far as the (ofttimes concomitant) restrictions on speech go, you do have a good point: critics of PCness should commend the US for the freedom of expression that cannot be found (to the same degree) in many other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/28 "2005-04-16T22:32:27Z")
> [@Fromage A Trois](#): > > I’ve noticed the same usage as **Captain Roscoe** in the UK, ie “tell it like it is”. Generally speaking a black person is referred to as black. An Indian person as Indian etc. That’s not to say there aren’t people who use derogatory terms, of course. But what if someone is British-born of Indian parents, say? Would you say they are Indian, or they are British? This is why Americans hyphenate nationalities, not because we’re not all “good enough” to be American or whatever, but because it’s a shortcut in describing cultural backgrounds, which often remain relevent in a family even after many generations in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/29 "2005-04-17T02:57:23Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Hmm? Not sure I get what you’re after, here: I was just giving an example of restrictions on speech, based on politics (albeit hideous genocidal politics), outside of the US. I wasn’t taking a side as to whether this sort of political correctness is a good thing. > > Daniel I’m not sure that it’s the same thing though. I’m not exactly versed in European politics…but I was under the impression that being Polotically Correct was trying to avoid a racial stereotype…The Nazis weren’t exactly a racial class that was unfairly stereotyped. It just didn’t seem like a good example. ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/30 "2005-04-17T02:58:49Z")
> [@Fromage A Trois](#): > > it seems that most people born in the UK call themselves British Really? It was my experience (purely as a tourist, mind you) that the people in the UK who called themselves “British” were almost always born in England. People from Scotland and Wales (and certainly Northern Ireland) seemed to avoid that term when referring to themselves. Or did I just happen to run across a skewed sample? ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/31 "2005-04-17T11:14:53Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > I don’t know if you’d call it a PC version, but I know a few in the gaijin community who refer to their Japanese-whatever kids as “doubles,” which bugs me almost as much. Not gonna use it. Yeah, that one made me want to puke. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/32 "2005-04-18T14:01:01Z")
The US might reign in political correctness… but the disease seems to have spread far and wide… though naturally not as strong. Its quite common to refer to blacks here in Brazil as “Afro Descendentes” (african descent) and several other terms for those in wheelchair or mobility problems. Most people joked about it initially… but its catching on. Racial distinctions are mentioned in PC only for blacks though… since european and Japanese originated Brazilians are quite proud of their origins. Its quite common for example to refer to Japanese-Brazilians just as “Japanese” or “Nissei” even if its quite clear they are Brazilian nationals. Gender words aren’t used much… since being a Romance language words gender are defined. ---
**Author:** ![ZeroGyro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47774/32.png) [@ZeroGyro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZeroGyro)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/33 "2005-04-18T17:23:45Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Its quite common to refer to blacks here in Brazil as “Afro Descendentes” (african descent) and several other terms for those in wheelchair or mobility problems. Most people joked about it initially… but its catching on. > > Racial distinctions are mentioned in PC only for blacks though… since european and Japanese originated Brazilians are quite proud of their origins. Its quite common for example to refer to Japanese-Brazilians just as “Japanese” or “Nissei” even if its quite clear they are Brazilian nationals. I dont understand this exactly. Are the “Afro Descendentes” not proud of their origins (I know they are quite a large group so I’m sure it varies) too? Why would they then want a PC term that mentions their African descent if they aren’t? And by European-originated Brazilians, do you mean people who’s families have come recently or older families? Do all Euro-Brazilians (once again, generalizing) prefer one mentioning their country of origin, calling them white, or calling them Brazilian? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/34 "2005-04-18T18:58:19Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > But what if someone is British-born of Indian parents, say? Would you say they are Indian, or they are British? ‘Asian’ is the commonly-used term as a catch-all for Bangladeshis, Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankans, both immigrants and British-born. ‘British Asian’ will crop up occasionally. Sometimes Asian people use religious affiliations as an important identifier - Muslims from India could easily have less in common with Indian Sikhs or Hindus than with Pakistanis. The point of my mini-ramble is that “British-Bangladeshi”, or whatever, isn’t necessarily describing anything in a more helpful way than any other term. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/35 "2005-04-19T03:43:01Z")
> [@Cat Jones](#): > > my comments were based on my experience with friends and colleagues including a lady of about 30 who came over from Zaire when she was 8 - Err…I think the issue here is that I include a 30 yo woman in the “young people”. I personnally never used the word “black”, and it would be as weird to me as using recent slang words commonplace amongst the youth. I don’t think anybody I know well ever use “black”, either. And my acquaintances would rarely be Le Pen electors. > [@](#): > > I actually had a conversation with her about this one day, she hates being called ‘noire’ but happily uses ‘black’ herself; You know, it’s not like I never met a black person ever… And I don’t remember having ever been told such a thing. It’s (“noir” being somehow derogatory) not an existing concept amongst my peers. Anyway, as I already mentionned, we don’t have any alternative apart maybe “african”, since “black” belongs to our vocabulary exactly as much as "babtou’ (for people of french origin) or “elle est vraiment bonne” (for a beautiful girl) does. In other words, it doesn’t. Its “urbanite youthspeak” for us. > [@](#): > > a berber lady who thinks that the ‘noirs’ should be sent home as ‘there are some places you wouldn’t beleive you are still in France’; another colleague is very opinionated, not too far away from Le Pen in some areas so I assume the language he uses is more likely to have pejorative overtones. I don’t see what it proves. If, as I assert, the large majority of the overall population (not young, not leftists, not urbanites) use the word “noir”, necessarilly the racist subset of said population will also use it. > [@](#): > > A question though, doesn’t the use of PC language always start with the younger part of the population ? Of course not. It can also be created by the intellectuals,the politicians, etc… But in the case of “black” I saw it appearing, so I can tell you it appeared amongst the teens. I think it came mostly along with the “break dance”, the rap culture, the “american black” clothing style, etc…There was a general attempt to imitate the american black culture amongst the people who started this trend in france (and where generally black themselves) and the word was imported at the same time ( “black” went in hand in hand with the “nike” shoes). > [@](#): > > An ‘afro-caribbean’ acquaintance from London is annoyed because her Jamaican dad still refers to himself as ‘coloured’ she on the other hand preferes ‘black’ - is her preference invalid because she is younger and more left wing than her father ? Nope. But stating that “noir” is derogatory is invalid because its not true amongst the vast majority of the population (at least at this point. Maybe it will be different 25 years down the road). It’s normally a completely neutral word. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/36 "2005-04-19T04:00:09Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > (Worse still, sometimes the feminine form meant the _wife_ of the dignitary: _l’ambassadrice_ was the ambassador’s wife, not a female ambassador.) > > Now, feminine forms are used for nearly all job titles: _la docteure Curie_, _la députée Nicole Loiselle_, _la première ministre Kim Campbell_, _ma fille est avocate_, _ma mère est une savante médecin._ This is essentially standard, as it is used by all levels of government in Canada. The situation isroughly similar in France (with the appearance of “ambassadeurEs”, “IngénieurEs du son”, etc…) except that though it’s now mandated for use in government documents, and more an more common in the printed medias, it’s not widespread amongst the population, not many people at this point would write “ingénieure” and hearing “madame LE maire” is as likely as hearing “madame LA maire” (“mairesse” wouldn’t be used. All feminine ending in “esse” have been avoided, since people thought it sounded bad/derogatory. The only one already existing I can think of, “doctoresse”, dissapeared in the process and was replaced by the made up “docteurE” when " madame le docteur" or “la docteur” isn’t. At this point it’s a bit of a mess.). ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/37 "2005-04-19T04:01:10Z")
> [@](#): > > **Hamish** : Hamish: African-American is derivative, coming through American pop-culture, and is what Americans think of as black urban culture. We don’t limit the use to urban cultures at all. To the best of my knowledge, there was never _really_ an issue over what to call manhole covers. The only times that I have heard people actually talk about this supposed controversy were when critics of the women’s movement or critics of gender-free language wanted to ridicule other _genuine_ concerns about biased language. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/38 "2005-04-19T13:21:54Z")
> [@ZeroGyro](#): > > I dont understand this exactly. Are the “Afro Descendentes” not proud of their origins (I know they are quite a large group so I’m sure it varies) too? Why would they then want a PC term that mentions their African descent if they aren’t? Well it beats calling them Negroes or blacks… no? PC talk is rarely demanded by the offended… but usually comes from those who are afraid of offending IMO. Naturally there are some who relish their african origins… especially in Bahia where there is a strong cultural connection. Otherwise blacks and mixed are usually poorer, less educated and certainly looked down upon by themselves and “whites”. > [@](#): > > And by European-originated Brazilians, do you mean people who’s families have come recently or older families? Do all Euro-Brazilians (once again, generalizing) prefer one mentioning their country of origin, calling them white, or calling them Brazilian? Non-portuguese Europeans would be more correct, be it recent or not (recent is 1820 onwards)… we have a lot of Italians, Germans and various others in the south and a few in the southwest. (They were usually poor immigrants that took over work on coffee plantations in substitution of slave labor.) Many refer to their being “Italian” or “German” or “Japanese”… they do strongly identify with their origins and their being “Gauchos” (southern State). Still everyone thinks of themselves as Brazilian. Naturally they might think less of other “darker” Brazilians… but their own national identity isn’t in question. ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/39 "2005-04-19T15:27:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Still everyone thinks of themselves as Brazilian. Naturally they might think less of other “darker” Brazilians… but their own national identity isn’t in question. Indeed :). When I once asked my wife about PC terms in her native Brazil, she laughed and said that regardless of whatever term anyone would use to indicate dual nationality, most folks would simply say _Eu sou brasileiro!_ (I’m a Brazilian!) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Roscoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f6c823/32.png) [@Captain\_Roscoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Roscoe)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136/40 "2005-04-20T12:44:18Z")
OK, I was filling in a survey just now, and thought of this thread. **The question:** What is your race? **The options:** - White - Black - Asian - Arabic/Middle Eastern - Other Now I understand that this is a just a survey (asking for views about the upcoming election, if you must know), but it’s a UK survey, for UK respondents, and I thought it went some way to illustrate the idea of ‘we say it like it is’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-correctness-outside-the-u-s/299136.md?page=3)