# Political crisis in Canada? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 28, 2008, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765 "2008-11-28T05:22:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/61 "2008-12-01T02:14:33Z")
Seems to me they thought that they had a couple of years wiggle room since the last election results and the Liberal leadership vacuum. A vote of non-confidence that triggered another election would have been no use for the Grits or NDP. But, who would have thought the Liberals and NDP would try and form a coalition? Looking at the numbers of course, they would also require the help of the BQ. Surely the Governor General cannot possibly recognize a federal government with separatist members? This has to be the Achilles heel in the whole scenario, no? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/62 "2008-12-01T02:34:15Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Seems to me they thought that they had a couple of years wiggle room since the last election results and the Liberal leadership vacuum. A vote of non-confidence that triggered another election would have been no use for the Grits or NDP. But, who would have thought the Liberals and NDP would try and form a coalition? Looking at the numbers of course, they would also require the help of the BQ. Surely the Governor General cannot possibly recognize a federal government with separatist members? This has to be the Achilles heel in the whole scenario, no? No. As discussed earlier, the Bloc is not interested in being part of the coalition government - that is to say, having positions in Cabinet. However, it could well agree to support the coalition. Also, I’m a little tired of the “any agreement with the evil séparatisses is illegitimate” meme. Like it or not, and I don’t, they’re the democratically elected members of Parliament for those ridings, and are fully entitled to participate in all the activities of the House. Harper, for one, didn’t seem to mind when the Bloc supported his government on a number of crucial votes in 2006. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/63 "2008-12-01T02:54:44Z")
Agreed. And for what it’s worth I think Gilles Duceppe is a fine politician and a gentleman. However, having coalition members, or supporting members, who are in fact in favour of breaking up the country is not a position I support. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/64 "2008-12-01T02:55:22Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > No. As discussed earlier, the Bloc is not interested in being part of the coalition government - that is to say, having positions in Cabinet. However, it could well agree to support the coalition. You’re splitting hairs pretty thinly there, saying in essence “Well, they’re supporting the coalition, but that’s not like being part of it.” A coalition of Liberal and NDP parties without guaranteed Bloc support is meaningless; it must inevitably fall without Bloc support on every single motion of confidence. You can say “ah, well, they’re not included in the coalition if they don’t have cabinet positions” but in any sense that matters it requires Bloc support, and Bloc influence will be just as great as some of the people in Cabinet. It will be a de facto three-party coalition, even if the cabinet’s nominally made up of Liberals and Dippers. There’s no workable coalition otherwise. > [@](#): > > Also, I’m a little tired of the “any agreement with the evil séparatisses is illegitimate” meme. It’s legally legitimate and the Governor-General absolutely should allow it to take place if they present an actual signed deal and have the support of the BQ. But, again, what is LEGAL is not necessarily what is RIGHT. It’s absolutely disgraceful that the Liberals and NDP would stoop to this. If the funding issue were on the table I’d see their point, but it’s not; they’re giving part of the reins of government to a party of Canada-hating bastards just because they don’t agree with them on economic policy. That they’re legally elected representatives of their ridings doesn’t change what they are and doesn’t require me or anyone else to respect their destructive, reactionary movement. Relying on Bloc support for a bill is one thing; creating a government in which they have veto power is stooping very low indeed. Somehow, all four parties are succeeding in disgusting me. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/65 "2008-12-01T03:33:45Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s legally legitimate and the Governor-General absolutely should allow it to take place if they present an actual signed deal and have the support of the BQ. But, again, what is LEGAL is not necessarily what is RIGHT. It’s absolutely disgraceful that the Liberals and NDP would stoop to this. If the funding issue were on the table I’d see their point, but it’s not; they’re giving part of the reins of government to a party of Canada-hating bastards just because they don’t agree with them on economic policy. That they’re legally elected representatives of their ridings doesn’t change what they are and doesn’t require me or anyone else to respect their destructive, reactionary movement. Relying on Bloc support for a bill is one thing; creating a government in which they have veto power is stooping very low indeed. > > Somehow, all four parties are succeeding in disgusting me. Well, I guess, living in Quebec as I do, I have somewhat of a different perspective on this. In my opinion Harper’s doing more to destroy the country than the Bloc has in the last ten years. But apparently that’s something we’ll have to disagree on. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/66 "2008-12-01T06:09:30Z")
Well, the Bloc haven’t tried to destroy Canada _lately_, that’s true enough. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/67 "2008-12-01T06:29:00Z")
I would be all in favour of holding a federal election again as soon as possible. With one, tiny condition: No current or former members of parliament should be allowed to run again in the new election. Throw every last single one of them out, and start with a fresh slate. A bunch of new MP’s could not do any worse than these clowns. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/68 "2008-12-01T06:33:35Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Well, I guess, living in Quebec as I do, I have somewhat of a different perspective on this. In my opinion Harper’s doing more to destroy the country than the Bloc has in the last ten years. But apparently that’s something we’ll have to disagree on. Well, unlike you I wouldn’t say Harper’s been “destroying Canada” or anything of the sort, but yes, **RickJay** ’s Bloc hating is a bit baffling to me. I can certainly understand that he disagrees with them on some crucial political points, but that he be nearly nauseated at the idea of them supporting an eventual government? And that he call them “Canada-hating bastards”? (Hint: I don’t think any Bloc MP actually hates Canada.) Yes, living in Quebec must give us a different perspective on all this. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/69 "2008-12-01T14:09:50Z")
I’ll cover **RickJay** ’s back here. For us in Ontario the Bloc are indeed Canada-hating bastards. As mentioned, I like Duceppe as a politician and as a man, but his – and the Bloc’s – policies for separation are clearly ridiculous and not part of our Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Booker\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/71c47a/32.png) [@Happy\_Booker\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Booker_1)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/70 "2008-12-01T14:14:11Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I’ll cover **RickJay** ’s back here. For us in Ontario the Bloc are indeed Canada-hating bastards. As mentioned, I like Duceppe as a politician and as a man, but his – and the Bloc’s – policies for separation are clearly ridiculous and not part of our Canada. And I’ll differ, also as an Ontarian. The Bloc’s Members have the same right and duty to represent their constituents’ interests in the House. If that means supporting a coalition to replace a dysfunctional government, that has no effect on the legitimacy of that coalition. ---
**Author:** ![MoodIndigo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@MoodIndigo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MoodIndigo1)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/71 "2008-12-01T14:52:57Z")
Interesting thread, though I am somewhat bemused at the (typical) fact that we Canadians would consider a political crisis a Mundane, Pointless Thing. Over the past few days, I felt we needed a coalition government to get through this. Now I feel that we should wait until the new date in January, and in the meantime, liberals should convince Dion not to wait until the end of his term to give up the position of Leader of the Liberal Party. They need to get a real leader in there, not a lame-duck one. I don’t much care if it’s Rae or Ignatieff, just that the liberals seem ready to govern in case they’re needed. Harper has shown his true colours. That’s a good thing, because many had been taken in by his smiling, calm, family-man image at the last election. We won’t be fooled again. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/72 "2008-12-01T15:07:25Z")
Fooled by what exactly? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![MoodIndigo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@MoodIndigo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MoodIndigo1)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/73 "2008-12-01T15:26:14Z")
Fooled by his giving off the impression that he’s going to govern from the centre. Thank goodness we didn’t give him the majority he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/74 "2008-12-01T15:37:46Z")
Does the Governor General have her own staff of constitutional experts to consult with or is she wholly reliant on the Prime Minister? Could she even ask the Queen for advice? Could a desperate Harper, dissatisfied with Jean’s ruling, try to appeal to Her Majesty? Honestly this whole thing reminds me of a **Royal Canadian Air Farce** that ended with the Bloc forming a minority government. ---
**Author:** ![serious\_lark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@serious\_lark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/serious_lark)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/75 "2008-12-01T15:45:47Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > What I find delightfully entertaining is that we had three years of governance over this country by a minority government that pretty much did as it pleased while the opposition backed down over and over again, in spite of some very loud whining and complaining about how terrible each successive bill was. It’s not until they have their own teeny, tiny piece of the federal pie threatened that they’re suddenly ready to topple the government. From my perspective, Harper has exposed his opponents as self-serving to a fault, with little or no interest in the actual good of the nation. To me, that strengthens his position as leader and weakens the credibility of the opposition. Backing down from that policy may very well have been part of the eventual strategy – a calculated risk and a bit of brinkmanship that will eventually be forgotten by the masses as just a bunch more posturing by both sides – but it forced the opposition parties to tip their respective hands, which makes it a strong tactical move on the part of the Conservatives. Call it cynical or unfair, but I say why not try to sneak such a move through, particularly when it creates the appearance of an attempt at fiscal responsibility by the ruling party, forced out of the equation by the money-grubbing opposition, and more particularly when it involves such a tiny piece of the total federal budget dollars. I think the optics of this move from the perspective of the unwashed, stupid masses, will work in favour of the Conservatives and against the Grits and NDP. Harper will eventually come out looking like the guy trying to cut costs in the government and the opposition will wind up looking like a bunch of greedy little bastards. YMMV. I completely agree with your description of our last parliament, and that it was the fault of the opposition parties that the Tories were permitted to govern like a majority government. I agree that most if not all of the motivation of the opposition parties is not for The Public Good, but for their own political skins. I do disagree on the soundness of the tactics, though. If the Tories had really wanted to expose his opponents as pathetically self-serving, they should’ve left the cuts to taxpayers subsidizing the political parties in place while addressing the other issues (unions, stimulus package). Instead, they’re frantically trying to appease the opposition parties now not to proceed with their coalition plans. (“We’re sorry now that we’ve finally found what it takes to get the wild animal in the cage to snap and has actually shown that it knows how to escape the cage”.) The way they’ve done this so far, the Opposition parties _have_ to stick to the position that this is not just about their financing (otherwise they would look every bit as venal as the Tories could want) and have to now seriously try to form a coalition. I don’t think in the long term Harper will come out “looking like the guy trying to cut cost”, because the amount of money is clearly so small relative to the federal budget. I think the unwashed masses (and why are they always unwashed, anyway?) have the correct perception that the Tories have been playing chicken with the opposition for years, only this time the opposition is not wilting as planned and is showing some very unexpected teeth. Harper has instead demonstrated what makes it so hard for so many Canadians to trust him as a Prime Minister. If he couldn’t win a majority against Dion, who can he win one against? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/76 "2008-12-01T16:26:12Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Does the Governor General have her own staff of constitutional experts to consult with or is she wholly reliant on the Prime Minister? Could she even ask the Queen for advice? Could a desperate Harper, dissatisfied with Jean’s ruling, try to appeal to Her Majesty? Honestly this whole thing reminds me of a **Royal Canadian Air Farce** that ended with the Bloc forming a minority government. She can _talk to_ whomever she wants. But she’s more or less bound by constitutional convention, in this case more than at other times. I don’t think Harper could appeal to the Queen, because the law attributes all her powers in Canada to the Governor General. Theoretically he could ask her to dismiss the Governor General and ask either the new GG or the deputy GG (the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court) to do something different, but I don’t think they would, and if you think he’s overplayed his hand _now…_ ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/77 "2008-12-01T16:30:00Z")
While I’m no fan of the Bloc, I’d like little better to see them actually involved in governing the country. Having to make and back the tough decisions involved in actually running a country would be good for them. There’s little easier to sit in the Opposition benches and snipe at government policies while knowing that you’ll never be called on to sit in the big chair and actually have to make things work. If they put themselves into the position of committing to support a Lib/NDP coalition for some timeframe, then they’ll become answerable in a way that they have never been. This can only be good for the country as a whole. As for Harper, I hope the way this little de-funding the Opposition stunt is blowing up in his face teaches him something, but I’m not terribly optimistic. I had hoped his bipartisan noises during the campaign were genuine, but it appears they were not. The message we sent in the election not two months ago was that we didn’t trust any of them and they should sit down like grownups and work together. Harper clearly didn’t hear that message, which is a measure of his own deafness and not the clarity of the message. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/78 "2008-12-01T17:00:35Z")
> [@Happy\_Booker](#): > > And I’ll differ, also as an Ontarian. The Bloc’s Members have the same right and duty to represent their constituents’ interests in the House. If that means supporting a coalition to replace a dysfunctional government, that has no effect on the legitimacy of that coalition. And as another Ontarian, I agree with the above. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/79 "2008-12-01T17:05:25Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > While I’m no fan of the Bloc, I’d like little better to see them actually involved in governing the country. Having to make and back the tough decisions involved in actually running a country would be good for them. There’s little easier to sit in the Opposition benches and snipe at government policies while knowing that you’ll never be called on to sit in the big chair and actually have to make things work. If they put themselves into the position of committing to support a Lib/NDP coalition for some timeframe, then they’ll become answerable in a way that they have never been. This can only be good for the country as a whole. \ They’ll never do that, and it wouldn’t be too far a reach to say they **can’t** do that - their platform is comprised of Quebec first and Quebec only. I agree with everyone who says they are legally elected representatives, but where I differ is that I think our election laws should be re-written to make parties like the Bloc Quebecois illegal. That goes for any federal parties who want to represent only Alberta, or only the Maritimes, or only BC, or only whomever as well. A federal party needs to be looking after the whole country, or they shouldn’t have federal party status. We have provincial governments to look after individual provinces. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765/80 "2008-12-01T17:31:33Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > They’ll never do that, and it wouldn’t be too far a reach to say they **can’t** do that - their platform is comprised of Quebec first and Quebec only. I agree with everyone who says they are legally elected representatives, but where I differ is that I think our election laws should be re-written to make parties like the Bloc Quebecois illegal. That goes for any federal parties who want to represent only Alberta, or only the Maritimes, or only BC, or only whomever as well. A federal party needs to be looking after the whole country, or they shouldn’t have federal party status. We have provincial governments to look after individual provinces. How would such a law be written in such a way as to be compatible with the Charter? You may be interested to know that in the past, a party had to have a certain large number of candidates in each federal election to maintain its party status. This law was successfully challenged and now the requirement is one candidate. If it’s unconstitutional to require more than one candidate to form an official party (which one candidate would, of course, be running in just one province or territory), how do you hope to outlaw provincial or, even more so, regional parties? More importantly, what do you hope to gain? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-crisis-in-canada/474765.md?page=5)