# Political fallout of transgender bathroom issue **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 14, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775 "2016-05-14T18:29:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/21 "2016-05-14T21:21:54Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > When a group of people have ‘x’ characteristic, and another group hates everyone with ‘x’ and seeks to oppress them, help me understand: what does uniting them look like? I guess in some books, “uniting” looks a lot like “give in to the bigoted assholes who want the freedom to hate and oppress others.” ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/22 "2016-05-14T21:30:48Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > When a group of people have ‘x’ characteristic, and another group hates everyone with ‘x’ and seeks to oppress them, help me understand: what does uniting them look like? how bout just do stuff that people in our country want done or work to it, instead of deal with transgenders, who are what, like 1 in 1000 people?? Or at least not act like the opponents of transgender ideology don’t exist. And liberals need to stop looking for The New Civil Rights movements. Its like they’d rather not win battles. LGB rights already won, as did racial civil rights, which is good! There are no equivalent ones to fight today, except ones they make up. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/23 "2016-05-14T21:42:46Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > how bout just do stuff that people in our country want done or work to it, instead of deal with transgenders, who are what, like 1 in 1000 people?? Or at least not act like the opponents of transgender ideology don’t exist. > > And liberals need to stop looking for The New Civil Rights movements. Its like they’d rather not win battles. LGB rights already won, as did racial civil rights, which is good! There are no equivalent ones to fight today, except ones they make up. And what is the minimum ratio required before a group is granted equal rights? ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/24 "2016-05-14T21:47:17Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > how bout just do stuff that people in our country want done or work to it, instead of deal with transgenders, who are what, like 1 in 1000 people?? Or at least not act like the opponents of transgender ideology don’t exist. > > And liberals need to stop looking for The New Civil Rights movements. Its like they’d rather not win battles. LGB rights already won, as did racial civil rights, which is good! There are no equivalent ones to fight today, except ones they make up. Out of curiosity, when the state of North Carolina went way out of their way to pass HR-2, overturning Charlotte’s bathroom ordinance, that was divisive, and they should have focused on stuff that the people of NC wanted done instead, right? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/25 "2016-05-14T22:00:10Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Out of curiosity, when the state of North Carolina went way out of their way to pass HR-2, overturning Charlotte’s bathroom ordinance, that was divisive, and they should have focused on stuff that the people of NC wanted done instead, right? [From here.](http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2016/05/16952/) > [@](#): > > Separately, the president pro tempore of the North Carolina Senate, together with the speaker of the North Carolina House of Representatives, also sued the United States. In their complaint, the president and the speaker contend that the **Department of Justice’s demands unlawfully interfere with the sovereign right of North Carolina’s citizens to self-governance.** They further contend that the demand represents an abuse of executive power manifesting “ideological extremity and utter unworkability” of an “astonishing” degree. Of course, this is exactly what the state of North Carolina did to the city of Charlottesville. [From here.](http://www.progressive.org/news/2016/04/188691/north-carolina%E2%80%99s-bathroom-bill-backlash-against-civil-liberties-it-legal) > [@](#): > > The North Carolina bill was passed during a special session after the city of Charlottesville enacted a LGBTQ non-discrimination ordinance. **State Republicans described the ordinance as overreach by local government.** In the House, every Republican and eleven Democrats backed the bill. In the Senate, Democrats walked out, leaving Republicans to pass it on a 32-0 vote. How fucking two-faced of them. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/26 "2016-05-14T22:29:21Z")
First, it’s Charlotte, not Charlottesville, which is in Virginia. Secondly, are you disagreeing with me about something? Your point is unclear. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/27 "2016-05-14T22:35:23Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > First, it’s Charlotte, not Charlottesville, which is in Virginia. Secondly, are you disagreeing with me about something? Your point is unclear. No, just adding the fact that the State is doing to the City the same thing they complain about when the Federal does it to them. Some of the articles have the cities crossed. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/28 "2016-05-14T22:42:58Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No, just adding the fact that the State is doing to the City the same thing they complain about when the Federal does it to them. Yeah, I agree. How about you, **DerekMichaels00**? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/29 "2016-05-14T22:44:41Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No, just adding the fact that the State is doing to the City the same thing they complain about when the Federal does it to them. . . . There is the fact that the constitution makes the states the units of legislation, not cities or counties, but, yeah, it’s still hypocritical in nature. It’s really hard to admire, “Let us alone to enjoy our rights to tell other people what they must and must not do.” ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/30 "2016-05-14T22:59:04Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There is the fact that the constitution makes the states the units of legislation, not cities or counties, but, yeah, it’s still hypocritical in nature. It’s really hard to admire, “Let us alone to enjoy our rights to tell other people what they must and must not do.” Right. It’s a legalistic argument, which fails for its own reasons. Just as our federal system gives states the right to run roughshod over their cities, it also grants Congress the power to fund local schools, and to withhold that funding if states discriminate against their own citizens, and most jurists believe Congress has done so in passing Title IX. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/31 "2016-05-14T23:27:00Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Not sure what part of this is rhetorical and what part is real questions. > > Yes, liberals started this. Then there was a conservative reaction, prompting this latest move. Asking “why now” is not significantly different for this than for any other social change, is it? None rhetorical. I think there is an implicit assumption in the OP that a wedge issue can only be pinned on the folks who are on the “wrong side” of that issue. However, something becomes a wedge issue when one side or the other decides to politicize it. And I find the Obama administration’s timing here more than a little suspicious. That’s all. Concerning the legalities, I also think there is a difference between adults and minors when it comes to transgender issues. AFAIK, minors do not receive gender-reassignment surgery, and the talk we hear is that anyone should be able to use the bathroom they “feel most comfortable with”-- no medical diagnosis necessary. Is it really clear that Title IX is that broad? If I’m reading things correctly, this applies to elementary schools as well, not just high schools, right? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/32 "2016-05-14T23:33:16Z")
One thing I’ve been wondering lately: When was the last time a segment of the government wanted to pass laws restricting the rights of a subsection of the citizenry? How’d that go? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/33 "2016-05-15T00:10:07Z")
Well, technically speaking, it happens with any restrictive law. The minimum wage “restricts the rights” of employers to pay their employees ten cents an hour. There’s currently a debate regarding Voter ID laws, and how they may (in some cases) be designed to restrict the right of some groups of people to vote. Abortion rights are constantly being infringed upon by restrictions, such as the (preposterous) requirement of a clinic to have hospital admittance authority. So, even without my nitpick (which is unworthy and may be disregarded) it happens all the doggone time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/34 "2016-05-15T01:09:39Z")
A “think of the children” argument won’t fly. This is a complete non-issue to children these days. To children, if you say you’re a girl, then OK, you’re a girl, no further fuss necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/35 "2016-05-15T01:09:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > None rhetorical. I think there is an implicit assumption in the OP that a wedge issue can only be pinned on the folks who are on the “wrong side” of that issue. However, something becomes a wedge issue when one side or the other decides to politicize it. And I find the Obama administration’s timing here more than a little suspicious. That’s all. > > Concerning the legalities, I also think there is a difference between adults and minors when it comes to transgender issues. AFAIK, minors do not receive gender-reassignment surgery, and the talk we hear is that anyone should be able to use the bathroom they “feel most comfortable with”-- no medical diagnosis necessary. Is it really clear that Title IX is that broad? If I’m reading things correctly, this applies to elementary schools as well, not just high schools, right? Transgender also applies to those who still have the original equipment but identify with the other sex. You don’t have to have sex-change surgery to be transgender. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/36 "2016-05-15T01:16:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > A “think of the children” argument won’t fly. This is a complete non-issue to children these days. To children, if you say you’re a girl, then OK, you’re a girl, no further fuss necessary. Also, according to Politifact: [http://www.politifact.com/north-carolina/article/2016/apr/22/roundup-hb2-fact-checks-north-carolinas-controvers/](http://www.politifact.com/north-carolina/article/2016/apr/22/roundup-hb2-fact-checks-north-carolinas-controvers/) > [@](#): > > “There have not been any public safety issues” in cities that allow transgender people to use the bathroom of the gender they identify as. > > – Equality NC Director Chris Sgro > > We rated that claim Mostly True. Sgro said that although opponents of transgender-friendly bathroom laws often cite fears of sexual predators, those fears aren’t based in fact. > > We searched far and wide for examples that fit three categories: 1. someone convicted of committing a sex crime AND 2. in the opposite gender’s bathroom or locker room AND 3. in a place that lets transgender people use the bathroom they feel most comfortable with. > > We couldn’t find any in the United States, and conservative groups also couldn’t point to any. There have been a few recent allegations, and we gave some weight to those, but people in America are considered innocent until proven guilty. We also found one case of a Canadian who took advantage of transgender-friendly rules in Toronto to commit rape and has been convicted, facing life in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/37 "2016-05-15T01:21:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And I find the Obama administration’s timing here more than a little suspicious. That’s all. I agree with the premise that it’s perfectly possible for “right” side to make something a wedge issue. I disagree that the timing is suspicious here. Again, what immediately precipitated this was North Carolina. Additionally, we know that the calls from schools for guidance from the feds had increased exponentially. Vanita Gupta (who is a [bad-ass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanita_Gupta)) has her fingerprints all over this one. She has been in charge of DOJ Civil Rights for less than two years. If you need some trigger beyond the general gestalt and the events in North Carolina, I suspect putting her in charge might be it. More than that, I think it would be a pretty risky move to select this as a national wedge issue. Do you really think it is good politics in Ohio? Florida? Virginia? North Carolina? I doubt it. Not clearly so, at least. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Concerning the legalities, I also think there is a difference between adults and minors when it comes to transgender issues. I don’t see why. A person might (reasonably but incorrectly, in my view) believe that taking HRT or getting surgery proves the sincerity of one’s gender identity, but the flipside is there’s not that high a chance of a fourth grader malingering as to gender dysphoria. If anything, I would think getting this right when our kids are young is the most important time to get it right–before the trauma and damage accumulates. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is it really clear that Title IX is that broad? It applies to elementary schools. And as I said above, it’s not new to observe that it covers gender identity. That’s been implicit since the 90s and explicit since at least 2000. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/38 "2016-05-15T03:10:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A wedge issue is one in which your side is generally united on, but the other side is not. Aren’t the Democrats pretty much united on the transgender bathroom issue? My instinct is that the right is more united on this issue than the left, although I’d certainly be happy to be proven wrong. And I also feel like there’s more passion on the right than the left. That is, the people who (stupidly, imho) think that this will lead to their children being molested are a lot more passionate about it than people who think that it’s the right thing to do. Even for people who intellectually believe that the trans folks deserve full equal rights, I think there’s still a bit of a discomfort factor. I think this issue is a lot harder for people on the left to be passionate about than gay marriage, because almost everyone has a friend or relative who is gay, while a far smaller percentage of the population is close to someone transgenered. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/39 "2016-05-15T03:53:19Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Lots to say here, but the easiest is this: if the law is so clear-cut then this guidance doesn’t matter. Ultimately, courts will decide. > > Note, however, that the treatment of discrimination based on gender identity as a violation of sex discrimination laws goes back two decades. That premise is not new, and has been routinely upheld by courts. Courts making new law is not a shining example of representative democracy. Whether it’s been done for 20, 40, or 60 years is entirely irrelevant. If you, or the majority of the SDMB, or the President, want to expand Title IX to include gender identity, then go to Congress and get a new law passed. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/40 "2016-05-15T04:17:54Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Courts making new law is not a shining example of representative democracy. . . . Courts overruling unconstitutional laws is a necessity of a constitutional democracy. (And a runaway court isn’t possible, because they lack the ability to enforce their rulings. Division of powers is also necessary for a constitutional democracy.) Hint to legislators: stop writing unconstitutional laws. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=3)