# Political fallout of transgender bathroom issue **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 14, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775 "2016-05-14T18:29:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/381 "2016-05-24T15:57:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If someone who “looks female” according to our culture but is biologically male can use the women’s room, and someone who “looks male” according to our culture but is biologically female can use the women’s room, then what’s the point? The _point_ is that everybody is able to use the restroom they identify with from their gender identity point of view. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What’s left to care about if anyone who looks like the opposite sex or actually is the opposite sex can use the restroom with you? What’s left to care about is whether they are using it because that’s how they identify or for prurient reasons. The latter being frowned upon. Hence, the need to hang on to gender based facilities for a little bit longer. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You can’t possibly know what sex, or gender, they are anyway. True. Yet somehow I think society will find a way to adjust and be okay with it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/382 "2016-05-24T16:10:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I assume, then, that you agree with the “redacted trans activist” in [this email exchange](https://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/)? Through the looking glass, IMO. (I learned about this “cotton ceiling” concept from a Doper who PMed me, not wanting to jump into the fray himself/herself but lending moral support from the feminist left.) > > Getting back to the political angle: I posted more or less the same opinions on Facebook and two of my friends responded with similar antagonistic rhetoric. But several other friends “liked” my post and comments, though only one of them was brave enough to post any comments in the thread. Notably, all of the friends expressing their support are staunch Democrats. That tells me that the support for forcing schools to allow self-declared M–\>F transgirls with penises into the girls’ locker room has a very limited constituency, and if this becomes the position the Democratic Party is identified with, it could be damaging. Let’s hope that in the mind of the public, it is associated with bathrooms only and not locker rooms, but given that actual case from the heartland, I’m not terribly optimistic on that front. Always nice to have the backing of cowards, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/383 "2016-05-24T16:46:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It would only be futile if most people didn’t prefer gendered bathrooms, But you still don’t get this. If someone decides they don’t prefer it, they “ruin it” for everyone else. In other words, if women prefer to pee only with people who look like other women, and a woman like Aniya Wolf uses the women’s room, all the other women have to accept it. Same goes for any other scenario involving preference for sex, or gender, or whatever - if one person prefers something else, their preference (by the presence), overrides that of everyone else’s. If one person prefers unisex restrooms - and uses the restroom that doesn’t correspond to his gender - then by doing so, he or she turns that restroom into a unisex restroom for everyone else in it, just by using it. I’m not complaining about this, just pointing out the folly of pretense. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/384 "2016-05-24T16:48:01Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But it demonstrates how this issue has exposed the futility of gender-segregated restrooms. If someone who “looks female” according to our culture but is biologically male can use the women’s room, and someone who “looks male” according to our culture but is biologically female can use the women’s room, then what’s the point? What’s left to care about if anyone who looks like the opposite sex or actually is the opposite sex can use the restroom with you? You can’t possibly know what sex, or gender, they are anyway. Whoah, dude! Three thousand posts on the subject, and I wasn’t convinced. But now? CONVINCED! You convinced me! END GENDER SEGREGATED BATHROOMS FOREVAH! FOREEEEEVVVVVAHHHHH!!! Everyone agree? [say yes, everyone] Great! Let’s move on. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/385 "2016-05-24T16:48:17Z")
[http://theweek.com/articles/625892/liberals-latest-lazy-cultural-crusade](http://theweek.com/articles/625892/liberals-latest-lazy-cultural-crusade) I think this says it best. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/386 "2016-05-24T16:58:15Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > The _point_ is that everybody is able to use the restroom they identify with from their gender identity point of view. No they won’t, because there is no such thing as gender. A female can dress and appear in every way to be a man, yet still identify as a woman, as my example showed, and use the women’s room. But knowing that that person is actually female, even though she appears to be a man, doesn’t matter, because a biological male (transgender woman) could also use that restroom. So if you can look like a man and use the lady’s room, and you can be male and use the lady’s room, what’s the point of preferring that you not be both at the same time? > [@](#): > > What’s left to care about is whether they are using it because that’s how they identify or for prurient reasons. The latter being frowned upon. Hence, the need to hang on to gender based facilities for a little bit longer. Why would anyone care about identity? Do you prefer not to pee next to people with the opposite gender identity? If you don’t care what their biological sex is, and you don’t care what they gender appears to be, why care what’s in their head (which you can’t ever discern without asking, and that’s going to be really awkward) about what gender they think they are? If people cared about identity, then the policy that transgender people can go in the bathroom of their gender would come with a prohibition that they go in the opposite one (corresponding to their sex). Do you think we should ban transgender men (biologically female) from going in the women’s room? If so, why, when a person who look exactly the same, but who identifies as female, is entitled to use the women’s room? Nobody else would even know the difference. > [@](#): > > True. Yet somehow I think society will find a way to adjust and be okay with it. Sure, and that’s fine. But the only way they’re going to do that is unisex restrooms. That’s going to be a difficult transition, and we shouldn’t pretend it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/387 "2016-05-24T17:02:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Whoah, dude! Three thousand posts on the subject, and I wasn’t convinced. But now? CONVINCED! You convinced me! END GENDER SEGREGATED BATHROOMS FOREVAH! FOREEEEEVVVVVAHHHHH!!! > > Everyone agree? [say yes, everyone] > > Great! Let’s move on. I’m not even trying to convince you of something. The fact that you don’t understand that shows why no, I’m not going to just move on. The transgender issue has blown the lid off gender entirely. That’s fine. Most people don’t see that. I do. The idea that we can just throw a bone to transgender people and then just continue on as before is naive. There is more to come. I think that’s great, but I’m ready for it. You’re not. It matters because this is the future of debate over this issue, even if you can’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/388 "2016-05-24T17:09:05Z")
My response to lance is in [that other thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=789410&page=11). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/389 "2016-05-24T17:09:28Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > [Liberals' latest lazy cultural crusade | The Week](http://theweek.com/articles/625892/liberals-latest-lazy-cultural-crusade) I think this says it best. From the article (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > …In purely political terms, the decision seems inexplicable. The number of transgendered people in the United States is vanishingly small — something on the order of 0.3 percent of the population. Many people, like me, who have no problem with allowing transgendered adults to use the bathroom of their choice nonetheless think it misguided to indulge the decisions of children in this area. **(Kids aren’t allowed to drink alcohol, drive, vote, work, or volunteer to fight in the military, but they should be permitted to change their birth gender?)**… One of these (bolded) things is not like the other. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/390 "2016-05-24T17:24:41Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > One of these (bolded) things is not like the other. The problem is that the issue of transgenderism is misstated as a choice: “they should be permitted to change their birth gender?” The prevailing wisdom is that it’s not a choice and that children are discovering, not choosing, their predetermined gender. That’s quite different from having a beer or voting. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/391 "2016-05-24T17:49:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The problem is that the issue of transgenderism is misstated as a choice: “they should be permitted to change their birth gender?” > > The prevailing wisdom is that it’s not a choice and that children are discovering, not choosing, their predetermined gender. That’s quite different from having a beer or voting. Perhaps you’ll have better luck explaining this to **DerekMichaels00** than others have thus far. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/392 "2016-05-24T17:54:29Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m not even trying to convince you of something. The fact that you don’t understand that shows why no, I’m not going to just move on. > > The transgender issue has blown the lid off gender entirely. That’s fine. Most people don’t see that. I do. The idea that we can just throw a bone to transgender people and then just continue on as before is naive. There is more to come. I think that’s great, but I’m ready for it. You’re not. It matters because this is the future of debate over this issue, even if you can’t see it. I will similarly not attempt to parse and refute your arguments on the subject because it’s been done by others repeatedly to no avail. However, in the interest of moving this further along, what do you mean by, “There is more to come.” ? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/393 "2016-05-24T18:03:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The problem is that the issue of transgenderism is misstated as a choice: “they should be permitted to change their birth gender?” > > The prevailing wisdom is that it’s not a choice and that children are discovering, not choosing, their predetermined gender. That’s quite different from having a beer or voting. They are only “discovering” it after being overloaded with sexist misinformation that men who think or behave in some way typical of women are women, instead of what they actually are, and will always be, which is neurologically atypical men, and vise versa. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/394 "2016-05-24T18:05:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I will similarly not attempt to parse and refute your arguments on the subject because it’s been done by others repeatedly to no avail. Exactly! 😉 > [@](#): > > However, in the interest of moving this further along, what do you mean by, “There is more to come.” ? More challenges to the idea that gender is a legitimate reason to separate people. More challenges to the idea that gender can be determined by looking at someone’s appearance any more than looking at their genitals or their genetic makeup. More challenges to the idea that someone even has to have a gender, or that there are only two of them, or that gender even exists. I’m not complaining about that. I’m just pointing it out. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/395 "2016-05-24T18:09:21Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > They are only “discovering” it after being overloaded with sexist misinformation that men who think or behave in some way typical of women are women, instead of what they actually are, and will always be, which is neurologically atypical men, and vise versa. This is so emphatically stated it hardly needs a cite (?). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/396 "2016-05-24T18:18:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed. Just like here. Neither heaven nor earth requires relocation; all that’s required is a twofold process: > > 1. Everyone uses the bathroom of the gender they identify with; and > 2. Everyone minds their own goddamned business about everyone else’s gender-identification-based bathroom choice. > > BOOM! Done. Good plan! Could be simplified though: 1. Everyone minds their own goddamned business about everyone else’s bathroom choice. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/397 "2016-05-24T18:19:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Good plan! Could be simplified though: > > 1. Everyone minds their own goddamned business about everyone else’s bathroom choice. Cool! So I, a cisgender man, can go in the room marked “Women” and all the women should mind their own goddamned business about my bathroom choice. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/398 "2016-05-24T18:20:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This is so emphatically stated it hardly needs a cite (?). The cite is the English language itself. Language does change, and people have every right to lobby for certain changes, including this one. But people also have a right to refuse to go along with changes to language that they deem to be manipulative and/or ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/399 "2016-05-24T18:25:48Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > They are only “discovering” it after being overloaded with sexist misinformation that men who think or behave in some way typical of women are women, instead of what they actually are, and will always be, which is neurologically atypical men, and vise versa. What if they aren’t being overloaded with any such information, and still feel they are female (or vice versa)? Some people have no trouble defying this sexist information. They proudly dress, look and act like the opposite gender yet don’t identify as that gender, as my example above demonstrated. Some are homosexual, some are not, but gay people aren’t transgender. And in fact, one would think that if your theory were true, all gay people would be transgender instead of gay. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/400 "2016-05-24T18:26:58Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > The cite is the English language itself. The English language doesn’t determine people’s genders, or define them. Language doesn’t define anything. It is simply the tool we use to describe things. We can change our language any time we want to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=21)