# Political fallout of transgender bathroom issue **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 14, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775 "2016-05-14T18:29:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/461 "2016-05-25T21:54:53Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > “flashers” (really, is that a thing even nowadays?) I don’t know how prevalent it is, and I’m not going to make it my life’s mission to determine that, but [this 2001 article in the Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/apr/19/gender.uk) gives a sense of how it may be difficult to even gauge how prevalent it is: > [@](#): > > A common response among women on the receiving end of this most unwanted revelation is to laugh and walk away. Perhaps this is why so many cases go unreported, despite the fact that, on anecdotal evidence, the crime appears to be prevalent. > > Most women of my acquaintance say they have been flashed at on at least one if not several occasions. The Home Office doesn’t record indecent exposure figures annually but the number of men being proceeded against is declining sharply. In 1997, the most up-to-date figures available, the numbers had fallen by half to 1,315 cases. It is not clear why this is, but a major factor must surely be that we are taking the crime less seriously. > According to police and sex therapists who treat flashers, the “harmless old git” tag is wildly off-beam. The flasher is more likely to be a young man - they start offending in their teens and, unless treated, continue throughout their lives - who may, over time, branch out into more serious contact sex crimes, including rape. Flashers are also highly likely to become involved in crimes against children.[…] > This is not to say that the flasher you see on the railway platform today is a rapist. “They work up to committing more serious crimes over time,” Wilcox says. “However, flashers are prone to stalking, rubbing themselves up against women in crowded trains (frottage) and sending offensive pornographic letters and photographs to targeted women; it’s part of the offender profile.” There’s something I hadn’t even thought of. A guy pulls this scam, and while in the locker room he sizes up various women and ends up fixating on one of them and stalking them. At which point you may be able to call the cops, depending on what he does. But no woman I know wants to get into that position to begin with. There are also, of course, the Peeping Toms, and I cited a couple recent examples upthread. So how many people will come up with the idea to exploit this loophole on their own? Hard to say. But you can bet that among those who do, there will be some who publicize it on sleazy sites like 4chan. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/462 "2016-05-25T22:08:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Boy am I getting tired of the repetition. How many times do I have to say my concern is flashers and Peeping Toms who now have a free pass by \*pretending \*to be trans, exploiting a loophole in a new legal protection? I’ve expressed dubiousness about various aspects of the whole trans deal, but I don’t doubt for a minute that people who commit to a “transition”, change their names, even get childhood photos gender-shifted, etc., are acting out of very sincere feelings. **Those are not the people I’m talking about here.** And without trans protection, they have a “free pass” by _pretending to be a birth-female transman_. Either way, lying pervs can lie and perv. Either way, men can enter the women’s locker room through deception. Your concerns only serve to harm trans people, and do nothing whatsoever to protect people from lying pervs. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/463 "2016-05-25T22:13:35Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > . . . my concern is flashers and Peeping Toms who now have a free pass by \*pretending \*to be trans . . . You might as well try to pass a law against transvestitism – men wearing women’s clothing – because that could enable a man to visit a woman’s bathroom by stealth. Yes, sure, some bad people are going to do bad things. You sure you want to ban all guns, because some people commit murder with them? You sure you want to ban all diaper-changing stations, because some pedophiles get off on looking at baby genitals? At this point, discriminating against good, decent, law-abiding transgendered persons, because bad guys might masquerade as them, is a rotten solution, especially, as noted a dozen times already, bad guys can already use bathrooms for pervy purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/464 "2016-05-25T22:15:27Z")
Afterthought. Okay, we compel transwomen to use men’s changing rooms…thus forcing them to expose their breasts for everyone to see. You really think this is some kind of good thing? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/465 "2016-05-25T22:25:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > But we socially enforce and prevent perverts of every stripe from ruining gender segregated bathroom/locker experiences to reasonably high effect. Are trans-people in such tiny numbers really going to ruin it for everybody? Or have they, given that they are already accepted in so many communities? I’m not sure why you responded with this. I didn’t say anything about “ruining” anything. And I wasn’t talking about perverts, I was talking about normal people using the restroom of their choice. I was simply explaining that it’s no longer possible to know which gender someone is just by looking at them - even if they are NOT transgender - and therefore no way to socially enforce gendered restrooms. And I wasn’t complaining about that, just pointing it out. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/466 "2016-05-25T22:30:03Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s absurd the kinds of mental gymnastics and social upheaval objectors will create and force society to conform with just because they want to avoid having a trans-person from getting an innocent (and likely disinterested) look at their junk. Isn’t that why we have gendered restrooms in the first place - to avoid an opposite-gender person from getting an innocent look at our junk? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/467 "2016-05-25T22:35:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This was already possible – androgynous people (whether by nature or style) have been around for decades and more. They didn’t kill public gendered restrooms. That there might be some very small number of people more in the future who don’t fit normal societal expectations for gendered appearance won’t kill them either. But that was because they were shunned and even violently attacked for daring to be themselves! Now that we accept transgender people, we must accept them too. They are emboldened and coming out of the closet. You see them all the time on the news now. I’ve seen reports about non-binary people (who say they have no gender) and cisgender women who dress and look like men just this week in the news. And I think that’s awesome. I support them. I’m saying we should support them just as we have done so with transgender people. > [@](#): > > Maybe that will change in the future – if style and society and culture change enough that there is no functional standard societal expectation for appearance and gender, then bathrooms would likely be a part of this change. But if things mostly continue as they are going for at least the short and medium term, then gendered bathrooms will continue to serve just fine, most likely, for the short and medium term as well, even if people are occasionally confused. It’s already happening. It only takes one person to desegregate for all of us. Just as one black person in a whites-only restroom makes it no longer a whites-only restroom, one person whose gender is opposite, or who we can’t tell, or who we just can’t find a reason to care about their gender, is all it takes to make a men’s or women’s room no longer a men’s or women’s room. Just be prepared to live up to the same sweeping declarations you make for transgender people when those people come along and say “what about me?” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/468 "2016-05-25T23:34:19Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Just be prepared to live up to the same sweeping declarations you make for transgender people when those people come along and say “what about me?” My guess is the answer will be “What ABOUT you? Go back to the men’s room where you belong, you dirty cis-man!” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/469 "2016-05-25T23:52:17Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Whatever. Remember, I said way upthread that it might make the most sense to have one locker room for everyone who possesses a functional, postpubescent penis, and another for everyone else. “Young boys” would be in with the group of people who have vulvas. Okay. Do you think there’s a goddamn chance in hell of this solution happening? If so, you’ve pushed things back: what incredibly creepy metric are you going to use to separate the men from the boys in this case? If you recognize that your solution is completely unrealistic, that we live in a world where it’ll never happen, then the next question is this: failing to achieve your ridiculous solution, what should we do? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/470 "2016-05-26T00:14:51Z")
I have also answered that repeatedly: redesign with a warren of individual changing and shower stalls, like at a department store. Ask Amtrak, or the micro-house people, to help design them ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/471 "2016-05-26T00:27:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have also answered that repeatedly: redesign with a warren of individual changing and shower stalls, like at a department store. Ask Amtrak, or the micro-house people, to help design them So the solution to this nonexistent problem is to force all businesses and nonprofits and government institutions to redesign all locker rooms at all facilities with locker rooms? Let me ask the question again: do you think this solution has a chance in hell of going forward? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/472 "2016-05-26T00:37:05Z")
_Something_ will have to give in some direction. People aren’t just going to mellow out about it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/473 "2016-05-26T00:46:08Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It’s already happening. It only takes one person to desegregate for all of us. Just as one black person in a whites-only restroom makes it no longer a whites-only restroom, one person whose gender is opposite, or who we can’t tell, or who we just can’t find a reason to care about their gender, is all it takes to make a men’s or women’s room no longer a men’s or women’s room. > > Just be prepared to live up to the same sweeping declarations you make for transgender people when those people come along and say “what about me?” By this logic, we’ve never had gendered bathrooms, since there were always folks who got away with violating them. If that’s the case, then I’m fine with continuing a charade that most people seem to prefer, since no one is harmed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/474 "2016-05-26T00:47:41Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > _Something_ will have to give in some direction. People aren’t just going to mellow out about it. They mostly will, with just a little bit of time, just like the recent rapid acceptance of gays. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/475 "2016-05-26T00:52:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They mostly will, with just a little bit of time, just like the recent rapid acceptance of gays. Very different. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/476 "2016-05-26T01:30:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Very different. I remember in 2010 the people who told me how completely different same-sex marriage was from mixed-race marriage, and how it’d never be accepted in the way that mixed race marriage is, because reasons. That’s what I’m reminded of here. You say “something’s got to give.” Well, sure. We have four solutions on the table: 1. Unisex bathrooms, whose only problem is that virtually nobody wants them. It’s a little difficult to enact a change that has no constituency. 2. Some sort of check to see whether boys have entered puberty, before they’re allowed to choose a bathroom, whose only problem is–oh, c’mon, only problem? There’s like five hundred problems, each more Piers Anthony than the last. 3. Remodel every locker room in the nation, at a likely cost in the billions of dollars. 4. Everyone mind their own goddamned business and not perv on other people. One of these solutions is doable. One of these solutions is the one that we’re going to go for. Sure, it’s not perfect: there will always be busybodies, and there will always be pervs. But none of the other solutions are remotely feasible. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/477 "2016-05-26T01:53:25Z")
I remember in whatever year you want to pick how stupid it was that anyone thought that whether or not gay people could marry had any effect on them and their own relationships… This is not like that. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/478 "2016-05-26T01:57:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > This is not like that. Because reasons. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Very different. Because reasons. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/479 "2016-05-26T01:58:34Z")
Where in the hell do all of you people live, where the restrooms are dark, dangerous places filled with peeping toms, flashers, perverts, and transgenders being attacked by anti-transgenders? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2016, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/480 "2016-05-26T02:05:39Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Where in the hell do all of you people live, where the restrooms are dark, dangerous places filled with peeping toms, flashers, perverts, and transgenders being attacked by anti-transgenders? North Carolina. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=25)