# Political fallout of transgender bathroom issue **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 14, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775 "2016-05-14T18:29:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/501 "2016-05-27T02:29:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I take you at your word that you have no earthly clue what I was getting at. Next time, instead of coming up with an attempted paraphrase that you surely knew was inaccurate, how about asking for clarification? My name’s not Shirley. 😛 But I promise you I did not know that paraphrase was inaccurate. I didn’t even _think_ it was inaccurate. And yes, I would be curious to know what you were getting at with all that talk about how people can recognize gender and biological sex from outward appearance, with \>95% accuracy. But if you just want to play games then whatever, I give up. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/502 "2016-05-27T02:33:58Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I promise you I did not know that paraphrase was inaccurate. I didn’t even think it was inaccurate. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. Everyone mind their own goddamned business and not perv on other people. :dubious: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > And yes, I would be curious to know what you were getting at with all that talk about how people can recognize gender and biological sex from outward appearance, with \>95% accuracy. > [@Slash1972](#): > > What standard definition of “male” and “female” are you using? And how can you tell this simply by looking at them? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Two different sets of definitions: > … > I’m not really sure what the relevance of this is ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/503 "2016-05-27T02:41:04Z")
Then why did you gas on about it, if you didn’t think it was relevant to the subject we are discussing? You pull out that “not sure it’s relevant” phrase as though that was pretty much all you said. But it wasn’t bolded and it didn’t really stand out in my original read of the post. So forgive me for actually thinking you had a point in saying all that stuff about people’s recognition of gender/sex. ETA: Your quoting there is misleading in another way as well. The question you answered was not directed at you, but at another poster who was arguing for maintaining gender segregated restrooms. Answering it implied that you share that view. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/504 "2016-05-27T02:56:07Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: Your quoting there is misleading in another way as well. The question you answered was not directed at you, but at another poster who was arguing for maintaining gender segregated restrooms. Answering it implied that you share that view. Oh, bullshit. The question I answered seemed to muddy the waters, so I was addressing just that question. I added the disclaimer about relevancy because I don’t think the fact that gender is binary for most people, and that most people present as the same gender that they identify with and that matches their chromosomal pairs, matters. But it muddies the debate to pretend that this isn’t the current state of affairs. If you don’t recognize that it’s valuable to see things as they are–if admitting to an obvious fact implies agreement with an odious ideology–that’s entirely not my problem. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > You pull out that “not sure it’s relevant” phrase as though that was pretty much all you said. But it wasn’t bolded and it didn’t really stand out in my original read of the post. So forgive me for actually thinking you had a point in saying all that stuff about people’s recognition of gender/sex. If you promise to read more carefully in the future, then my forgiveness is freely given. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/505 "2016-05-27T03:00:29Z")
I still don’t get what you are trying to say, especially in that last sentence–it seems almost like you are arguing with some other invisible person–but my boredom is overcoming my curiosity, so whatever. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/506 "2016-05-27T16:08:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I wanted to know what standard definitions he meant and how he could tell who is male and who is female simply by looking at them. Looking at the millennia of successful breeding attempts by homo-sapiens, are we really going to have _this_ fucking conversation? Okay. Let’s. In the ordinary course of events, how do you identify genders and with what estimated rate of success? I trust you’ll be honest with your answers. This is for science and posterity, afterall. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/507 "2016-05-27T17:11:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Looking at the millennia of successful breeding attempts by homo-sapiens, are we really going to have _this_ fucking conversation? > > Okay. Let’s. > > In the ordinary course of events, how do you identify genders and with what estimated rate of success? > > I trust you’ll be honest with your answers. This is for science and posterity, afterall. Perhaps YOU could answer the question first, since I asked you first. And please be clear, you said “male” and “female” and said you could tell with a high degree of certainty which was which. What is the definition of male and female you are using, and how do you tell with a high degree of certainty what a person is? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/508 "2016-05-27T17:15:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps YOU could answer the question first, since I asked you first. And please be clear, you said “male” and “female” and said you could tell with a high degree of certainty which was which. > > What is the definition of male and female you are using, and how do you tell with a high degree of certainty what a person is? Why on earth is this relevant to the discussion? I’ve offered some straightforward definitions above, and we all know empirically that by any common definition of gender, most folks agree on the gender of most people pretty quickly. Yet there are exceptions, and the exceptions are the folks whom we’re considering here. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/509 "2016-05-27T17:20:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps YOU could answer the question first, since I asked you first. And please be clear, you said “male” and “female” and said you could tell with a high degree of certainty which was which. > > What is the definition of male and female you are using, and how do you tell with a high degree of certainty what a person is? I have eyes and a brain with which to interpret time tested social cues typically (but not exclusively) associated with the respective gender. Now you. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/510 "2016-05-27T17:24:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Why on earth is this relevant to the discussion? I’ve offered some straightforward definitions above, and we all know empirically that by any common definition of gender, most folks agree on the gender of most people pretty quickly. Yet there are exceptions, and the exceptions are the folks whom we’re considering here. You’re going to spoil **manson1972** ’s cunning _gotcha_! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/511 "2016-05-27T17:25:33Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You’re going to spoil **manson1972** ’s cunning _gotcha_! I kinda think I spoiled it last night, when I answered his question frankly and he admitted that he didn’t remember what his point was :). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/512 "2016-05-27T17:46:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I kinda think I spoiled it last night, when I answered his question frankly and he admitted that he didn’t remember what his point was :). Hey, at least get it right. That was a different question that I specifically directed at you 🙂 And AGAIN with the “gotcha yas!!” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/513 "2016-05-27T17:49:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I have eyes and a brain with which to interpret time tested social cues typically (but not exclusively) associated with the respective gender. > > Now you. Yep, just what I thought. You won’t answer. I would have bet money that you wouldn’t answer a simple question because you are afraid of “gotchas!!!OMG!” If your position is so untenable that you are afraid someone will “gotcha ya!” then perhaps your position isn’t as strong as you think. Something clearly evident by your lack of an answer to the question of “How do you define male and female?” Good luck in all your other endeavors!~ ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/514 "2016-05-27T17:51:36Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yep, just what I thought. You won’t answer. I would have bet money that you wouldn’t answer a simple question because you are afraid of “gotchas!!!OMG!” > > If your position is so untenable that you are afraid someone will “gotcha ya!” then perhaps your position isn’t as strong as you think. Something clearly evident by your lack of an answer to the question of “How do you define male and female?” > > Good luck in all your other endeavors!~ [Girl & Boy](https://www.google.com/search?q=image+stick+figure+girl+%26+boy&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=947&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi63qqo6frMAhXNQD4KHUjgDUIQsAQIGw). I explained it to you. I’m afraid can’t understand it for you. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/515 "2016-05-27T18:01:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > [Girl & Boy](https://www.google.com/search?q=image+stick+figure+girl+%26+boy&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=947&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi63qqo6frMAhXNQD4KHUjgDUIQsAQIGw). > > I explained it to you. I’m afraid can’t understand it for you. You have to look up pictures on Google Images in order to determine if someone is a male or female? Must be tough in bars with no wifi. Is that a gotcha? I’m not sure it is. As far as I can tell, you are stating you simply look at a person, and if that person looks like what you would call a typical man, then that person is a male? Same for a female? Regardless of their biological sex and gender identity? Simply how they dress and cut their hair tells you if they are male or female? Maybe that’s a gotcha? I don’t know. This could be easier if you would simply answer the question of how YOU know if someone is male or female? That shouldn’t depend on how I know who is a male or a female. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/516 "2016-05-27T18:08:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > As far as I can tell, you are stating you simply look at a person, and if that person looks like what you would call a typical man, then that person is a male? Same for a female? Regardless of their biological sex and gender identity? Simply how they dress and cut their hair tells you if they are male or female? See, I knew you could figure out the answer. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Maybe that’s a gotcha? I don’t know. This could be easier if you would simply answer the question of how YOU know if someone is male or female? That shouldn’t depend on how I know who is a male or a female. Now you tell me how you know. Let’s see if we can find some common ground. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/517 "2016-05-27T18:12:17Z")
Okay, this is getting really boring again. Absent any further pleas via PM, I’m outie, hopefully for good this time. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/518 "2016-05-27T18:16:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I have eyes and a brain with which to interpret time tested social cues typically (but not exclusively) associated with the respective gender. > > Now you. One of my students is a 30-ish biker, big and hairy with tough-guy tattoos and wouldn’t look out of place on a huge Harley. And then I saw him doodling a transgendered symbol on his notebook… asked him about it and got an earful. My response: “But you’re one of the manliest guys I know.” “Yep, that’s the idea!” So now I know I have no gay-dar and no trans-dar either. No bathroom police job for me! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/519 "2016-05-27T18:18:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > See, I knew you could figure out the answer. Well since looking at dress and hair cut to determine sex and gender is the dumbest way possible, I didn’t want to accidently put that answer for you. Finally, a good “GOTCHA!” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Now you tell me how you know. > > Let’s see if we can find some common ground. I DON’T know, and I wouldn’t say I do. I actually don’t care unless it’s someone I’m going to be intimate with. Woman dress like men, men dress like women, who knows? Gender can only be determined if the person actually TELLS you what gender they are, or so I’ve read. Clothing and hair style surprisingly don’t always match with biological sex organs. And guess what? I don’t care. I could post a bunch of links to pictures and you can say if they are male or female, which would be kind of fun for me, but I don’t have the time. Thanks for letting me answer for you and you just agreeing with it. Maybe I’ll make up some other opinions of yours that you could just agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/520 "2016-05-27T18:20:05Z")
> [@digs](#): > > One of my students is a 30-ish biker, big and hairy with tough-guy tattoos and wouldn’t look out of place on a huge Harley. And then I saw him doodling a transgendered symbol on his notebook… asked him about it and got an earful. My response: “But you’re one of the manliest guys I know.” > > “Yep, that’s the idea!” > > So now I know I have no gay-dar and no trans-dar either. > No bathroom police job for me! But he was dressed as a man! He HAS to be a male! Ask **QuickSilver**! :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=27)