# Political fallout of transgender bathroom issue **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 14, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775 "2016-05-14T18:29:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/81 "2016-05-16T13:30:10Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Then perhaps he’s still right, in a sense - liberals need to focus more on the larger issue, which is that discrimination based on sexual orientation/gender ID in general, not just in bathrooms. Did you know that NC HB2, which is at the center of this controversy, specifically forbids local governments in NC from passing local laws that include LGBT protections in the workplace or requiring contractors to follow anti-discrimination practices? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/82 "2016-05-16T13:45:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve done this many times – you just don’t like my argument. It doesn’t mean that I didn’t construct one. I wasn’t referring to you. I was actually thinking of things like the memes you might see on Facebook, etc. or comments there. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/83 "2016-05-16T13:46:52Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Did you know that NC HB2, which is at the center of this controversy, specifically forbids local governments in NC from passing local laws that include LGBT protections in the workplace or requiring contractors to follow anti-discrimination practices? Yes, but the fact that most people don’t know that is the problem I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/84 "2016-05-16T13:48:47Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I wasn’t referring to you. > > I was actually thinking of things like the memes you might see on Facebook, etc. or comments there. Okay, thanks. Looking back, you said “many people can’t…” not “everyone can’t…”, so I misread your post. Apologies for my hasty reaction. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/85 "2016-05-16T14:02:30Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I was actually thinking of things like the memes you might see on Facebook, etc. or comments there. I know that whenever _I_ shop at the Marketplace of Ideas, my first stop is always the “Facebook memes” aisle. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/86 "2016-05-16T14:05:39Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I know that whenever _I_ shop at the Marketplace of Ideas, my first stop is always the “Facebook memes” aisle. I know, I know. I didn’t say Facebook was a font of intelligence. But it’s popular. Many people read it or post on it, and it reflects popular thinking. That’s my point in the first place - lots of people are out there using rather shallow thinking. Not surprising, just, as I put it, amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/87 "2016-05-16T14:22:27Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > My worry is that conservatives will use this as a wedge issue to drum up voter turnout and culture wars issues, You are describing the entirety of the Republican party in this one sentence. The Republican party’s entire foundation and primary campaign strategy consists of appealing to lower class voters by stirring up ethnic and religious hatred. The entire point of the GOP is to bait voters with issues that are divisive but ultimately meaningless, rather than seriously address important and intractable problems. I mean, why worry about global warming, exhausting fossil fuels, and ensuring humanity’s continued access to clean water, when you can distract the voters with nonsense about bathrooms, abortions, and gay marriage? Any rational human being would recognize that these problems are minor league chickenshit compared to some of the real problems facing humanity. I can’t comprehend why America’s rural poor continue to vote for a party dedicated to screwing poor people. It just baffles me. The poorest and most exploited people in this country vote for a party that actively attacks their own rational self-interest. This is precisely why the Republican party continues to appeal to the poor and the working class as a source of “values,” anti-intellectualism, and religious principles… Because their platform is otherwise indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/88 "2016-05-16T16:10:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > So who’s Chief Moderator of the United States? Alex Trebek? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/89 "2016-05-16T16:36:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Alex Trebek? Nah, he’s Canadian. Like Ted Cruz. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/90 "2016-05-16T17:11:53Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I support transgender access to restrooms corresponding with their gender. > > That said, I am still amused that many people can’t seem to construct an argument for transgender access to the existing segregated, sexist system of dual restrooms that doesn’t also call for ending that system and just having unisex bathrooms. I think that’s an interesting discussion, one worth having, but it’s not the world we live in right now. Right now, 99.99% of facilities (percentage made up) have male bathrooms and female bathrooms. We could, more or less over night, change which of those preexisting rooms a transgendered individual can visit. We can’t, more or less overnight, suddenly reconfigure everything to be unisex. The pure logistics of it (urinals!) are probably daunting, and that’s a massive change to a fundamental societal assumption that has been unchanged for generations. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/91 "2016-05-16T17:17:50Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I am still amused that many people can’t seem to construct an argument for transgender access to the existing segregated, sexist system of dual restrooms that doesn’t also call for ending that system and just having unisex bathrooms. I don’t think it’s very complicated. The substantial majority of people, both cis and trans, are more comfortable in binary-gender-segregated restrooms, or at least no less comfortable there than in unisex facilities. There is no call for change there, except as a point of theory. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/92 "2016-05-16T17:24:44Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I don’t think it’s very complicated. The substantial majority of people, both cis and trans, are more comfortable in binary-gender-segregated restrooms, or at least no less comfortable there than in unisex facilities. There is no call for change there, except as a point of theory. Sure, the way you explain it. But the slogans, like “Who cares who you pee next to?” backfire. Your explanation is certainly more complicated than that. And even your explanation has holes. If the comfort of a transgender person matters (and I think it does), why doesn’t the comfort of someone else matter? After all, we already have a system in which comfort with a certain gender and not others is enforced - the same system transgender people want access to. So why can someone declare they don’t want to be with the same gender, but can’t do the same for being around transgender people? It’s all a mess no matter what because its trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/93 "2016-05-16T17:28:31Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think that’s an interesting discussion, one worth having, but it’s not the world we live in right now. Right now, 99.99% of facilities (percentage made up) have male bathrooms and female bathrooms. We could, more or less over night, change which of those preexisting rooms a transgendered individual can visit. We can’t, more or less overnight, suddenly reconfigure everything to be unisex. The pure logistics of it (urinals!) are probably daunting, and that’s a massive change to a fundamental societal assumption that has been unchanged for generations. I understand that, and I don’t want to change it anyway. I’m just sitting on the sidelines, watching. I do think that this could lead to unisex bathrooms if other people start to make demands. It in essences makes gendered restrooms obsolete, at least in theory, since there’s no basis for anyone to challenge anyone else’s use of a restroom any more - not even by appearance, since you can’t demand that only people who look a certain way declare themselves to be a certain gender. I’m not saying these are bad things, just inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/94 "2016-05-16T17:31:19Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So why can someone declare they don’t want to be with the same gender, but can’t do the same for being around transgender people? It’s all a mess no matter what because its trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. People can declare anything they want. Right now, as a straight cis man, I can say “hey, I only feel comfortable going into bathrooms with women between the ages of 33 and 37, and men between the ages of 50 and 52, and only if they’re wearing fedoras”. Doesn’t mean anyone has to listen to me. In general, I think that you (and many people from the right who comment about this issue, although I’m not trying to imply any other connection between you and they) try to frame the issue as “preference”. As in, Joe “prefers” to be a woman, and now calls himself “Jane”, and now “prefers” to go to the bathroom with women, so why should we respect his preference? Whereas actual transgender people (hopefully I’m not horribly misrepresenting here) would say “Jane was born male, but Jane IS female, period”. At which point it’s not a question of weighing different people’s preferences, it’s a question of recognizing the truth of who Jane is. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/95 "2016-05-16T17:39:06Z")
It’s somewhat demoralizing to tune in every day to the SDMB and see some people, a very few but some nonetheless, each day debating whether or not me and my people should be treated fairly and allowed even the basic dignity of bathroom access. This is not just an issue which impacts some folks who are abstractions. It affects me right now. I work in North Carolina on occasion, and am likely to travel there in a month. I work in government buildings and offices as part of my job. And under HB2, it will be illegal for me to use the ladies’ room. Sure there’s no actual “penalty,” and some cities have said they won’t enforce it…but I also have signed a document which says I will never knowingly violate any laws (other than traffic and parking ordinances) lest I be immediately fired without recourse. If you’ve seen any of the photos I’ve posted, I’m a 5’5" 130-pound transgender woman with long hair, feminine face, and a D-cup. How well do you think I’ll fare going into a men’s room? Never mind the fact that despite being forced to use them for decades, they were always a source of fear and discomfort for me, forcing me to deny my own identity. Add to this my being a rape survivor (from cisgender men) twice over, and can you see why it might be somewhat cruel and vindictive to force me to use a men’s room? But no, people will bring up the “why are we accommodating 1 in 1,000” (even though it’s likely more than that, but whatever) and the “bbbuuuutt…seeing transgender people in the ladies’ room will \*confuse \*young girls! And then parents will have to _explain_! I don’t want to have that conversation! Isn’t life so very hard enough for the little tykes?” Give me a fucking break. Your little tyke witnesses something like 10,000 murders, untold numbers of sexual assaults, violence, battery, and other crimes on TV by the time they’re 18 - but letting a transgender woman come into a bathroom to pee, that’s the image where you draw the line? Bull-fucking-shit. So what will I do? Will I walk into the men’s rooms in a skirt-suit and heels, and get the stares, the dropped jaws, the comments, the snickers, the propositions? In a government building I’m hopefully not going to receive worse. Or do I violate an unjust law and use the women’s room, as I’ve done for 4 years without incident or accident? Most conservatives and Republicans will say “sucks to be a psycho; get into the men’s room, ‘dude’.” What does everyone else think I should do? As far as political fallout, I don’t really care, and nor do pretty much any other activists I work with or communicate with. This issue needs to be addressed now. Things have only started to get better for my people in the last 4-5 years. Political fallout might send us back a couple of years but progress is now moving inexorably forward. I’m dealing right now with helping my community which has more than a 50% unemployment rate locally (and about a 90% underemployment rate for those who even have jobs!), suicides and attempts, denial of health care services, denial of education, loss of families, ostracism by parents, spouses, children, grandchildren, friends. For people like me, the very, very few lucky ones, life is pretty goddamn good - in that it’s _normal_. For the vast majority of my community we are already in a world of shit, and to tell the truth if there is a fallout from the transgender bathroom issue, we’ll deal with it. We’ll fight twice as hard and talk to twice as many people and given how much I already do, I don’t know, maybe I’ll only sleep 3 nights a week or something. Because this isn’t just something I debate on message boards from a comfy chair during ad breaks. This is my life. I don’t mean living, but I mean the lecturing, the counseling and mentoring, the community efforts, the outreach to the homeless and prostitutes on the streets, the research, the speeches at churches, universities, high schools, civic groups. The political action with city councils and mayors, the protests and counter-protests. I’m having to stop posting to these threads lest I keep ranting like the above. But it’s hard not to raise your voice when it’s your head in the crosshairs. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/96 "2016-05-16T17:59:28Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > People can declare anything they want. Right now, as a straight cis man, I can say “hey, I only feel comfortable going into bathrooms with women between the ages of 33 and 37, and men between the ages of 50 and 52, and only if they’re wearing fedoras”. Doesn’t mean anyone has to listen to me. I know. That’s my point. People can’t listen to ANY of your personal preferences about who you pee with–except for one. One preference is not only listened to, it is fully accommodated by pretty much every public restrooms in the country. That’s weird. > [@](#): > > In general, I think that you (and many people from the right who comment about this issue, although I’m not trying to imply any other connection between you and they) try to frame the issue as “preference”. As in, Joe “prefers” to be a woman, and now calls himself “Jane”, and now “prefers” to go to the bathroom with women, so why should we respect his preference? Whereas actual transgender people (hopefully I’m not horribly misrepresenting here) would say “Jane was born male, but Jane IS female, period”. At which point it’s not a question of weighing different people’s preferences, it’s a question of recognizing the truth of who Jane is. Not at all. I don’t care why someone is transgender. I don’t question that at all. I’m just interested in the preference - and preference is the right word - concerning who a given person wants to be in a public restroom with, or not be with. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/97 "2016-05-16T18:10:23Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > If you’ve seen any of the photos I’ve posted, I’m a 5’5" 130-pound transgender woman with long hair, feminine face, and a D-cup. How well do you think I’ll fare going into a men’s room? Yeah, one of the absolutely most ridiculous parts of this entire debate is that clearly the anti-trans crowd have a totally bizarre mental image of what transgendered people look like, such that a transgender woman walking into a woman’s room would immediately and obviously be visible and alarming to everyone, whereas in reality the opposite would more likely be the case. There’s an opportunity for a great series of ads, with an absolutely “normal”-looking woman talking about how uncomfortable she’d be having to share a bathroom with men, with subtly Christian-seeming music playing, totally implying that this is an anti-transgender ad; and then she says “my name is Jane. I was born John, but I am a woman. Which bathroom should I use?” or something like that. (Although I don’t know enough about the trans community to know if something like that, which arguably implies that the objective of all trans people is to end up looking 100% conventional in their new gender, would be considered offensive or not.) ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/98 "2016-05-16T18:14:10Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Not at all. I don’t care why someone is transgender. I don’t question that at all. I’m just interested in the preference - and preference is the right word - concerning who a given person wants to be in a public restroom with, or not be with. But couldn’t that precise type of logic be used to deny colored people access to white water fountains? The black people would prefer to use the same water fountains, the white people would prefer they didn’t. Well, fuck the white people, this is a civil rights issue, it’s not just a “count up the preferences and try to make the most people happy” issue. Again, it’s not just that 0.1% of the population suddenly said “hey, we want X” and it didn’t matter at all what everyone else wanted. It’s that 0.1% of the population (or whatever the actual stat is) made a case that they were being denied their rights, and that denial is now being corrected. If that makes other people uncomfortable, well, tough luck. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/99 "2016-05-16T18:16:42Z")
I am reminded of [MLK’s letter](https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html): > [@](#): > > We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word “Wait!” It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This “Wait” has almost always meant “Never.” We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that “justice too long delayed is justice denied.” > > … > > First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; **who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom** ; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. (my bold) Replace the racial references with gender identity references and the message is just as compelling. Screw the fallout. Do what’s right. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/100 "2016-05-16T18:21:08Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I know. That’s my point. > > People can’t listen to ANY of your personal preferences about who you pee with–except for one. One preference is not only listened to, it is fully accommodated by pretty much every public restrooms in the country. That’s weird. On the one hand, you insist that it’s “wierd”, while on the other you accept **iiandyiiii** ’s explanation about why it’s the accepted convention that virtually no-one disputes. Can you explain why you continue to take this position? What are you trying to convey - that male/female restrooms should be abolished entirely? If not that, what then? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Not at all. I don’t care why someone is transgender. I don’t question that at all. I’m just interested in the preference - and preference is the right word - concerning who a given person wants to be in a public restroom with, or not be with. Again, in service of what? To blow the lid off conventional privacy/modesty views in American culture? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=6)