# Political fallout of transgender bathroom issue **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 14, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775 "2016-05-14T18:29:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/101 "2016-05-16T18:25:14Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I am reminded of [MLK’s letter](https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html): > > (my bold) > > Replace the racial references with gender identity references and the message is just as compelling. Screw the fallout. Do what’s right. Inspiring as those words are, I think (and I hope I’m not just being a clueless “white moderate” by saying this) that there’s a difference between strategic and tactical timing. That is, there’s a difference between saying “hey, black people (or transgendered people), just cool your jets, we’re not ready for this yet, slow down, be happy with incremental change” and “hey, we know you’re about to do a particular specific thing, and that particular specific thing could be done either before or after the upcoming election, which is razor thin and super-pivotal… you might want to delay, not indefinitely, but until Novermber 10…”. Do you think MLK would have just utterly refused to recognize that sort of short term political consideration? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/102 "2016-05-16T18:30:12Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But the slogans, like “Who cares who you pee next to?” backfire. I agree, it is not a great slogan, at least not for a general national context. The fact is, many people do “care,” at least a little, but mostly not in the backward way that the NC law frames the matter. In actual practice, people care about presentation. That’s why transfolk that look and act more-or-less typical for their identity _have not been_ a problem for others, as a rule. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If the comfort of a transgender person matters (and I think it does), why doesn’t the comfort of someone else matter? After all, we already have a system in which comfort with a certain gender and not others is enforced - the same system transgender people want access to. So why can someone declare they don’t want to be with the same gender, but can’t do the same for being around transgender people? Everyone’s comfort “matters,” in the sense that the weight of public feeling makes certain courses of action more or less achievable. Certainly comfort should not override justice, in any case where there is real conflict. In this case, it happens that upholding the ostensible preference for “not being around” people on the basis of genitals and chromosomes, is the course with the distinct practical disadvantage, relative to the traditional approach of not considering strangers’ equipment closely in public places. The majority-comfort practice is the _same_ as that preferred by transfolk who are settled in their “binary” identity and presentation. It is the bigots, the NC lawmakers and their peckerwood supporters, who are the weird creeps here! The rest of us were mostly using men’s rooms and women’s rooms just fine, before those assholes made a thing of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/103 "2016-05-16T18:30:28Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Inspiring as those words are, I think (and I hope I’m not just being a clueless “white moderate” by saying this) that there’s a difference between strategic and tactical timing. That is, there’s a difference between saying “hey, black people (or transgendered people), just cool your jets, we’re not ready for this yet, slow down, be happy with incremental change” and “hey, we know you’re about to do a particular specific thing, and that particular specific thing could be done either before or after the upcoming election, which is razor thin and super-pivotal… you might want to delay, not indefinitely, but until Novermber 10…”. Do you think MLK would have just utterly refused to recognize that sort of short term political consideration? I don’t know. I just know that I can’t set the time table for another person’s rights. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/104 "2016-05-16T18:33:35Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Inspiring as those words are, I think (and I hope I’m not just being a clueless “white moderate” by saying this) that there’s a difference between strategic and tactical timing. That is, there’s a difference between saying “hey, black people (or transgendered people), just cool your jets, we’re not ready for this yet, slow down, be happy with incremental change” and “hey, we know you’re about to do a particular specific thing, and that particular specific thing could be done either before or after the upcoming election, which is razor thin and super-pivotal… you might want to delay, not indefinitely, but until Novermber 10…”. Do you think MLK would have just utterly refused to recognize that sort of short term political consideration? In this case, however, it was not the Transgendered community rising up to DEMAND more rights. It was a state government ACTIVELY denying them rights that a city had given them. It was the STATE government who made a big freakin’ deal of this. It is the right-wing who is screaming and whining about this. For the obvious reason (as pointed out above) that they are using this issue as a wedge to get votes in an election year. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/105 "2016-05-16T18:34:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > On the one hand, you insist that it’s “wierd”, while on the other you accept **iiandyiiii** ’s explanation about why it’s the accepted convention that virtually no-one disputes. Can you explain why you continue to take this position? What are you trying to convey - that male/female restrooms should be abolished entirely? If not that, what then? [lance has a very special thread dedicated specifically to this issue, so it doesn’t keep derailing threads about transgender issues](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=789410). May I suggest that everyone take any further questions for him there, so this thread doesn’t, like so many others, turn into an exploration of an issue that only he seems really to care about? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/106 "2016-05-16T18:44:33Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > But couldn’t that precise type of logic be used to deny colored people access to white water fountains? The black people would prefer to use the same water fountains, the white people would prefer they didn’t. Well, fuck the white people, this is a civil rights issue, it’s not just a “count up the preferences and try to make the most people happy” issue. Yes. Yes it would. So now we don’t have white restrooms and black restrooms any more. But we STILL HAVE men-only and women-only restrooms. We reject other forms of discrimination based on preference - except for one, which we still embrace. > [@](#): > > Again, it’s not just that 0.1% of the population suddenly said “hey, we want X” and it didn’t matter at all what everyone else wanted. It’s that 0.1% of the population (or whatever the actual stat is) made a case that they were being denied their rights, and that denial is now being corrected. If that makes other people uncomfortable, well, tough luck. Sure. But it’s still weird, because the right that was being denied was the right to discriminate. Saying that transgender people have the right to use a restroom of their gender and not have anyone of the other gender around is fitting them into an existing system of segregation. Imagine if someone, a long time ago, had said that biracial people should have the right to use the whites-only restroom and not be restricted to the blacks-only restroom. You’d see the larger problem. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/107 "2016-05-16T18:46:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [lance has a very special thread dedicated specifically to this issue, so it doesn’t keep derailing threads about transgender issues](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=789410). May I suggest that everyone take any further questions for him there, so this thread doesn’t, like so many others, turn into an exploration of an issue that only he seems really to care about? Yeah, sorry, it happened again. I’ll quit. I do think it’s the issue that nobody is actually talking about but should, but never mind, carry on with the usual stuff that doesn’t get to the point. But if only I cared about it, nobody else would be discussing it with me, would they? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/108 "2016-05-16T18:50:01Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sure, the way you explain it. But the slogans, like “Who cares who you pee next to?” backfire. Your explanation is certainly more complicated than that. > > And even your explanation has holes. If the comfort of a transgender person matters (and I think it does), why doesn’t the comfort of someone else matter? After all, we already have a system in which comfort with a certain gender and not others is enforced - the same system transgender people want access to. So why can someone declare they don’t want to be with the same gender, but can’t do the same for being around transgender people? It’s all a mess no matter what because its trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Because the idea that it has to do with the comfort of trans people is false. Yes, it does make them uncomfortable to use the wrong restroom, but discomfort has never been the actual factor. If it were, then racists could say they were not comfortable going to the same bathroom as a black person. The issue is bigotry and discrimination. Trans people are being singled out and being told they’re not really the gender that they present as. They aren’t being made uncomfortable–their entire existence is being said to be wrong. They have to go back to their previous gender presentation–the one causing them a mental illness. Gender segregated restrooms require no discrimination. They are agreed to by both parties. There is not one majority forcing the minority to do what they want. This false equivalence that you do only serves to make the anti-trans argument stronger. If it is about comfort, then why can’t people made uncomfortable about a penis matter? Because it isn’t, any more than gay marriage was about making gay people happy. Nothing about the trans argument requires unisex restrooms. That’s not to say they won’t happen–they could. But you can fix the problem without that. In fact, it was the status quo most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/109 "2016-05-16T18:58:09Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > In this case, however, it was not the Transgendered community rising up to DEMAND more rights. > > It was a state government ACTIVELY denying them rights that a city had given them. It was the STATE government who made a big freakin’ deal of this. It is the right-wing who is screaming and whining about this. For the obvious reason (as pointed out above) that they are using this issue as a wedge to get votes in an election year. Sure, but the federal government chose to issue the title 9 directive, and chose the precise timing of when to do it, which is the reason I started this thread in the first place. (And the answer may be “the situation was actively so horrible, and the federal directive was going to be so effective and so immediate, that no one could in good conscience delay at all”, but that’s not the impression I have. In particular, this seems like one of those issues where a federal directive doesn’t actually change anything, it just kicks off a very slow process of appeals and meetings and committees and ruling and so forth. But I admit to a fair bit of ignorance on the topic.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/110 "2016-05-16T19:01:07Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Yeah, sorry, it happened again. I’ll quit. I do think it’s the issue that nobody is actually talking about but should, but never mind, carry on with the usual stuff that doesn’t get to the point. > > But if only I cared about it, nobody else would be discussing it with me, would they? I discuss it because your arguments make it harder for trans people to be able to use the restroom that matches their gender identity. You add an additional burden. Someone who doesn’t want unisex restrooms can use your argument as a way to say that this means they can’t budge on the trans restroom issue. By conflating two issues, one of which has a long history of support by society, you make it harder to argue the one that only became an issue relatively recently. I don’t want to discuss it. I want you to get past your ignorance in thinking everyone else is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/111 "2016-05-16T19:05:32Z")
I don’t think it’s a wedge issue. My guess is that the Obama admin acted based on 2 considerations: [ol] [li]The vast majority of ordinary people are not all that worked up one way or the other about transgender bathroom issues, and[/li][li]Social change is hard to win at the ballot, but when you ram it down people’s throats they learn to accept it and life goes on.[/li][/ol] I think they’re correct about both of these. [Personally I’d like to see them get smacked down in court, purely out of antipathy to their overreaching style of dictatorial government. But that’s not what’s relevant to this particular thread, I would think.] > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Yeah, one of the absolutely most ridiculous parts of this entire debate is that clearly the anti-trans crowd have a totally bizarre mental image of what transgendered people look like, such that a transgender woman walking into a woman’s room would immediately and obviously be visible and alarming to everyone, whereas in reality the opposite would more likely be the case. > There’s an opportunity for a great series of ads, with an absolutely “normal”-looking woman talking about how uncomfortable she’d be having to share a bathroom with men, with subtly Christian-seeming music playing, totally implying that this is an anti-transgender ad; and then she says “my name is Jane. I was born John, but I am a woman. Which bathroom should I use?” or something like that. (Although I don’t know enough about the trans community to know if something like that, which arguably implies that the objective of all trans people is to end up looking 100% conventional in their new gender, would be considered offensive or not.) I would think that many or most of these trans people have had reassignment surgery, and can get legally declared to be their current gender and the law would give them no trouble. The people caught in the middle are the ones who haven’t had surgery and my guess is that these don’t tend to be the “burly bearded” type. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/112 "2016-05-16T19:14:44Z")
It is bizarre to view non-binding guidelines as dictatorial overreaching. Would conservatives prefer that the DOJ ignore the requests for guidance and simply jump straight into litigation? Or is the only non-dictatorial option to decline to enforce their view of Title IX at all? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/113 "2016-05-16T19:17:44Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It is bizarre to view non-binding guidelines as dictatorial overreaching. What’s really bizarre is for you to stress that something is a “non-binding guideline” when you know good and well that it’s backed by an implicit threat to withhold billions of dollars in federal funding. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/114 "2016-05-16T19:19:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What’s really bizarre is for you to stress that something is a “non-binding guideline” when you know good and well that it’s backed by an implicit threat to withhold billions of dollars in federal funding. I don’t know that good and well. Educate me. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/115 "2016-05-16T19:21:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What’s really bizarre is for you to stress that something is a “non-binding guideline” when you know good and well that it’s backed by an implicit threat to withhold billions of dollars in federal funding. They still have a choice. Just raise taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/116 "2016-05-16T19:28:04Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I don’t know that good and well. Educate me. If you don’t know that good and well then you’re completely ignorant of this issue, because virtually every article on the subject mentions it. [Sample:](http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/12/politics/transgender-bathrooms-obama-administration/) > [@](#): > > The letter does not carry the force of law but the message was clear: Fall in line or face loss of federal funding. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/117 "2016-05-16T19:30:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I would think that many or most of these trans people have had reassignment surgery, and can get legally declared to be their current gender and the law would give them no trouble. The people caught in the middle are the ones who haven’t had surgery and my guess is that these don’t tend to be the “burly bearded” type. What about future generations of transgender people? Are they not entitled to be born into a more tolerant society? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/118 "2016-05-16T19:50:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you don’t know that good and well then you’re completely ignorant of this issue, because virtually every article on the subject mentions it. [Sample:](http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/12/politics/transgender-bathrooms-obama-administration/) Oh, well, if a bunch of people in the media say it, it must be true. And yet, I can’t help but wonder, how are the North Carolina schools doing with their loss of “billions of dollars” in funding when the Obama Administration declared them to be out of compliance with Title IX? Thanks. Sorry I’m so completely ignorant. I’m probably misinterpreting your post too! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/119 "2016-05-16T19:55:02Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > And yet, I can’t help but wonder, how are the North Carolina schools doing with their loss of “billions of dollars” in funding when the Obama Administration declared them to be out of compliance with Title IX? I’m not sure what you’re doing here. As you’re probably aware, what NC is doing is going to court about it. > [@](#): > > Thanks. Sorry I’m so completely ignorant. I don’t know if you’re really that ignorant or are playing some weird game here. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775/120 "2016-05-16T19:56:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I would think that many or most of these trans people have had reassignment surgery, and can get legally declared to be their current gender and the law would give them no trouble. North Carolina’s law specifically mandates their criteria by what is recorded on a birth certificate, and several states either prohibit or make difficult changes to birth certificates. Although I have all forms of ID showing “F”, including my US passport, US social security, drivers license, CCW license, engineering license, foreign visas to several different countries, UK identification, etc., Kansas refuses to change birth certificates. Some other states which claim to allow changes will also demand large amounts of documentation and bona fides, and even then will pull stunts like “losing” the applications and court orders. I have personally interviewed two women who although they’ve had all their surgeries etc. have been fighting to get their birth certificates updated in Louisiana. One was only eventually successful after she sued the state, hardly a cheap nor easy thing to do, especially since she now lives across the country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/political-fallout-of-transgender-bathroom-issue/754775.md?page=7)