Hey, here’s an idea. Maybe we should start a thread where people could list the exceptions - the situations where they take feel that the best interests of society are more important than their own personal interests. We could call it something like “Political positions you hold that aren’t in your best interest”.
And then somebody could come along and say they don’t believe in this. And when somebody gives them a counter-example showing how foolish that belief is, they can pretend that’s what they meant all along.
I believe Democracy just doesn’t work. (Yet I live in a Democratic country where voting is compulsory, and I’d vote even if I didn’t have to)
Colonialism and Imperialism are good things, and all those 3rd world countries are a bunch of ingrates for telling the major powers to clear off. (Not in my best interests to mention publicly, since a lot of people disagree with me)
Firearms ownership should NOT be an automatic, inalienable, God-given right (I’m a keen gun owner, shooter, hunter, and collector)
I am against school vouchers even though I used to send my child to private school and I now homeschool him. I don’t believe in taking money out of the public school system just because I choose to take my child out.
Hmmm…I’m intrigued. Flesh that out for me a bit, Martini. What’s your objection? More importantly, what’s your alternative? Keep in mind Sir Winston Churchill who said, “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”
So… you believe everyone should vote against their own self-interest? And you’re saying that voting in your own self-interst is foolish? Dude, get real!
I rather agree with Sir Winston there, along with another one of his famous quotes: “The best argument against Democracy is a five minute chat with the average voter.”
I should probably explain that I believe Democracy in its current form doesn’t work, because the people we elect don’t really give a rat’s ass about us- only whatever their political party tells them to do- and you’re wasting your time trying to run as an independent anywhere except the most rural of electorates.
Voting is compulsory in Australia (something I disagree with, as I also firmly believe in the right to abstain), and what you end up with is electorates that are “safe” for one party or another- seats where the vast majority of voters support, say, Party A, and Party A will basically always win that seat in an election. If you support Party B, and you live in a “safe seat” for Party A, you are, in effect, wasting your time voting, since Party A will win anyway.
Then you’ve got things like the whole “preference” system (whereby the runners-up can “give” their votes to another candidate to boost THEIR numbers), which I hate with a fiery burning passion, and there’s the fact that none of the political parties have any policies which I’d consider to be in my interests, or of any massive benefit…
New Zealand is just as bad, with the MMP system effectively allowing “fringe” parties to hold the balance of power, meaning that the Legalise All Drugs And Make Everyone Speak Maori Party effectively decides who gets to form a majority in Parliament, with the result that some party that I not only didn’t vote for, but have never even heard of is now deciding who gets to be Parliament.
I like the idea and the principles behind democracy, they’re just badly executed, IMO.
The alternative, of course, is to put me in charge of the country (or, at the very least, the state).
I think we’re confusing base self-interest with “enlightened self-interest.” It may be better if someone else goes and fights Hitler, but it is in your interest to go fight just to make sure. Sometimes it’s in your own best interest to catch a bullet in the head at 19 without having reproduced, so that the culture and the nation can survive. Similarly, it’s in your self-interest to give up your seat to a pregnant lady, if you have an interest in living in a society where pregnant women don’t have to stand for extended periods of time unnecessarily.
I am in favor of affirmative action hiring, even though I personally lost out on a job because a less qualified minority applicant was hired specifically because he was a minority… I am a white male.
I too would be willing to be taxed more to pay for universal health insurance, even though my insurance is probably better than such a system would provide for me.
I believe in equal rights for all people, although I might be able to afford a slave if it was legal. And even though I sometimes wish I could order women to have sex with me. And even though I believe that my intelligence and knowledge makes my opinion worth more than yours. And even though I sometimes feel the average border collie is at least as smart as the average person.
I’m against tax cuts for the wealthy because I think I would prefer a society with less rather than more difference between rich and poor, for various personal and economic reasons. The benefits might be less tangible than my paying less in taxes, but I think they would be there. I think most of my positions that are against my self-interest (and probably most people’s) are that sort of thing.
I am not speaking for Can Handle the Truth, because I think his idea of voting in your own self-interest may be a little more specific than mine. I think it’s clear that, when one lives in a society, and especially a democracy or republic, that we are all responsible for each other and for the kind of society we live in, as you point out. I certainly think that national defense is a prime example of where one might be concerned with the society as a whole than for one’s own personal & immediate welfare (operating under the assumption that if we lost a major war, it would more than likely be very, very bad for my personal welfare and/or happiness). Certainly, some social programs could be looked at the same way. The way I see it, this concern for society as a whole certainly can be considered to be in one’s own self-interest. I wasn’t really thinking of cases where you might say “I support my taxes going towards (fill in the blank), even though I have no need of this service myself.” My thoughts are more along the lines of “I do not support my taxes going towards (fill in the blank) because I think this program is bad for me and/or society as a whole.”
Recently, I voted against a sales tax increase because the only benefit to the populace would’ve been to lower property taxes. As my husband and I own our own home, and as I personally do much of my shopping out of town anyway due to convenience factors, raising the sales tax probably would’ve been to my benefit. Unfortunately, my slack would’ve been picked up by the city’s other residents, most of whom are not as well off as I am. I refuse to burden others when I’m more than able to pay.
Back when I was a young, carefree liberal/leftie, I believed in voluntary voting (which research has shown to benefit the conservative parties). Now that I’m a conservative, I believe in compulsory voting (which research has shown to benefit the left).
You decide which is more important. Right now, the most important issue to me is universal health care. Why? Because I really need it; I can’t get regular health insurance. For me this issue overrides all others. The irony is that I will have to vote for all democrats for president and congress in order to get what I need, and I really hate doing that. (Nothing against the democrats, I just don’t like voting a straight party ticket.)
Well now you’ve just reminded me of something that fits the bill, I think. I only just recently failed to split a ticket for the first time in my adult life. The reason I’ve always had an aversion to voting a party line is that my mother used to make fun of a few of our neighbors, because when New York State eliminated the Party Line lever in the voting machines, they didn’t know how to vote. They had never done anything but pull the Republican lever, and vote for everyone on the line. My mother explained to a dozen of our neighbors how they would vote for candidates individually, giving them the confidence to march into the voting booth and pull a lever for each individual Republican on the line.
