# Politically correct? A question of gender... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 18, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766 "2003-12-18T15:12:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/21 "2003-12-19T14:33:44Z")
If you think about things that way, go right ahead, no one’s stopping you. I just think the concept of gender at all, except with regards to physical sex, is silly and outdated. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/22 "2003-12-19T15:05:44Z")
**Ludovic** , your position is offensive to me – it implies that I am “silly and outdated” for being transsexual. It is also, obviously, wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/23 "2003-12-19T15:29:58Z")
Ah, but **Kelly** , remember that **Ludovic** has the luxury of never having had to think about his sex or his gender. “The dizzy man thinks the whole world spins round,” as Mr. Shakespeare said. ---
**Author:** ![Rodrigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Rodrigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodrigo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/24 "2003-12-19T16:17:14Z")
## Why don’t the trangendered/transsexual/different-gendered people get their acts together and come up with a clear glossary. Some things just look made up, there are only so many possibilities. This whole personally-made definitions end up with every person being a gender island ## I may be conservative but I still count only to sexes: male and female; genders are for nouns and pronouns (and, in Spanish, adjectives) minor hijack Are Egyptian-Americans also African-Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/25 "2003-12-19T16:20:55Z")
I didnt say you were silly and outdated, although it’s possible that you are. It’s just what I feel with regards to my own personality. It very well may be universally true, and I have a hunch that it is, or perhaps gender does indeed matter, but I’m not going to argue that one way or the other since, as **eve** said, it’s fortunately not that important to me. But **Eve** , how do you know that I have never thought about my sex or gender? I think that it is less important to me than to the billions of humans who have actually never thought about it. How do you know that I have not thought about it and came to the conclusion that it is irrelevant? ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/26 "2003-12-19T16:31:22Z")
**Rodrigo** , do you think there’s some sort of Transsexual Command that has the authority to bind all of us to a specific set of terms? I’ve got news for you. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/27 "2003-12-19T16:44:00Z")
**Ludovic** , please read what I wrote in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4191766#post4191766) about variable strength of gender identity before you spout off about the irrelevance of intrinsic gender. Making such a claim is equivalent to claiming that all transsexuals are delusional. And please don’t conflate gender identity with gender role. The two are entirely different concepts. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/28 "2003-12-19T16:45:47Z")
You may well have thought about it—but you’re like a six-foot-tall man telling a midget that “shortness” is a silly, outdated concept. A lot of us have _had_ to deal with “gender” on a day-to-day basis. **Kelly** , didn’t you get the Transsexual Command memo? We’re all meeting next week. Bring paper plates; I’m bringing the salad. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Matrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/34f0e0/32.png) [@Red\_Matrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Matrix)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/29 "2003-12-19T17:23:39Z")
I think there’s a difference between “Gender” and “Sex” as far as differentiating humans. Sex (Male/Female) refers to the anatomy. Gender refers to the _role_ humas play in society. I believe I heard this first at college. (Anthropology) ---
**Author:** ![Rodrigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Rodrigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodrigo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/30 "2003-12-19T17:27:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***Rodrigo** , do you think there’s some sort of Transsexual Command that has the authority to bind all of us to a specific set of terms? > > I’ve got news for you. \*\* Well, the **International Straight Guy Association** is working pretty well, maybe the **Transsexual Command** can be modelled along its lines. Seriously, the only thing I want is to know the right word, but every person with a gender issues (I was going to say problem but it’d’ve got me killed) get to invent a word, don’t ecpect the rst of us to get ir right all the time and understand we mean no disrespect in, let’s say I call you “transgenderd” are you consider yourself “different gendered”. BTW, I still don’t get the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/31 "2003-12-19T17:39:29Z")
Just don’t call us “tranny” or “shemale” and you’re off the hook, as far as _I’m_ concerned. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/32 "2003-12-19T18:26:06Z")
**[FDISK.COM](http://FDISK.COM)**: gender does NOT refer to role. Gender role refers to role. Gender is a separate concept, and not everyone who is female adopts or follows a female gender role. **Rodrigo** , I have something of a glossary on my [website](http://www.pyrzqxgl.org/%7Ekmartin/t-what.html). Of course, others may disagree with me on whether those terms are appropriately defined. Oh, and **Eve** , I routinely refer to myself as a “tranny” or as a “tranny dyke”. I think “tranny” is one of those words like “fag”: fine to use if you are one, bad to use if you’re not. “Shemale”, on the other hand, is [inexcusable](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4318723#post4318723). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/33 "2003-12-19T18:48:43Z")
Kelly, I agree with that post: > [@](#): > > Is the problem that there’s no objective way to measure “strength of gender identity” or even “gender identity”? Does it bother you that gender might be an inherently “subjective” quality, in that the only way to discover it is to ask the individual and accept their answer without regard to whether you agree with it or not? I am not going to tell someone they are not who they claim they are. I was just inquiring as to whether many such individuals, yourself included, are of the same opinions as the masses of unthinking people who assume that gender is an extrememly relevant issue for everyone. That would make you silly and irrelevant: but you did not claim that. However, this quote gave me pause: > [@](#): > > Making such a claim is equivalent to claiming that all transsexuals are delusional. I am not claiming that all transsexuals are delusional. However, when it comes down to it, I _do_ make the claim that objectively speaking, gender is pretty irrational and illogical. So is sexual intercourse, but I have reconciled my desire for sexual intercourse with the fact that it’s a pretty weird and irrational thing to be concerned about. I simply care about it, and cannot change that, simply recognize it is a part of me. Not to equate the two, but you would agree that there is not necessarily an objective reason gender should be relatively important to you (versus me?) ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/34 "2003-12-19T19:17:22Z")
**Ludovic** , I don’t understand what you mean by gender being “objectively irrational and illogical”. That’s rather like saying that the color blue is objectively irrational and illogical. Trying to deny that gender exists is about as irrational and illogical as denying that the color blue exists. By claiming that gender is illogical, you are essentially claiming that you, having “evolved” beyond the “need for gender”, are “better” than those who have not. I reject that thesis. I am a human, not a Vulcan. Emotions are not wrong; having emotions and reacting to them is not illogical. Attempting to stamp out all emotional response from one’s life, however “logical” that may seem, is inhuman. My gender is objectively important because my happiness depends on recognizing my gender and behaving according to it. Trying to deny me my gender identity will make me unhappy, which is an objectively discernable state. Therefore, it is objectively logical for me to recognize and respond to my gender. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/35 "2003-12-19T20:45:59Z")
I didnt say I was above illogic. In fact, I agree with you that it would not be logical to not try to satisfy your emotional needs. I’m just saying those needs are not. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/36 "2003-12-19T20:48:49Z")
So what you are saying is that my emotional needs are illogical. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/37 "2003-12-19T21:33:42Z")
I don’t see the problem with that. Mine are too. The best I can do is acknowledge that and live with it anyway. All of our emotions are only understandable to me in view of evolution. Still, while I can comprehend my desires for intercourse and socialization and survival in that light, they are still illogical in that they make no _sense_ to me, really. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/38 "2003-12-20T05:03:22Z")
I think that what **Ludovic** is trying to say is that all emotional needs are illogical, really, according to certain senses of the word “illogical” - i.e. they draw their source from something other than logic. But that doesn’t mean that they’re bad or wrong. Is that a fair assessment, Ludovic? ---
**Author:** ![phraser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a88e4f/32.png) [@phraser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phraser)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/39 "2003-12-21T03:19:17Z")
Here is a post by another member of an egroup I am on which makes a good summary IMHO of the differences between transsexual and transgender (posted with the author’s permission). (For the sake of completeness, this quote comes from the context of a discussion about medical/theraputic protocols for transsexual people compared with transgender people.) > [@](#): > > Transsexualism is not about ‘degrees of difference’. It’s a medical > condition. Just like you’re not “a little bit pregnant”, you’re not “a > little bit transsexual”. > On the other hand, you can be a little bit scottish or indian - just like you can be a little bit transgender. > Can you see this difference? > > Let’s put aside the social judgement part of transgender. People > seem to be a bit afraid to be transgender sometimes. > And I think rightly so - considering the crappy way medical > professionals have treated transgender people. > Yes - I think guidelines for transgender people can be drawn up - > and no, they don’t need to be prescriptive. > There just needs to be some way that provides medical professionals (who > some transgender people consult to help out) a way to help without needing > to formally diagnose as such (perhaps?). > > Transsexualism on the other hand, is a neuro-biological medical condition > that is readily diagnosable. Transsexualism is a condition which has very > clear guidelines and answers - and it’s much like treating diabetes. > You’re on your way. > > Transgender people _must_ be afforded the same respect, the same level of > recognition and health care standards - and medical professionals need to > recognise that their reluctance and misunderstanding of the transgender > experience causes many of the problems for transgender health that we’re seeing now. > > \>“There’s probably parts of either diagnosis that I cringe at…” > > again - transsexualism has a medical diagnosis > > - while transgender doesn’t have a > medical diagnosis. Transgender is what many people are. > There’s stacks and stacks of transgender people. > Most transgender people don’t opt for hormones or surgery. > Many do though, and it appears increasingly so. > > \>“That’s my vision for treatment protocols as well - I just don’t \>know if we need separate ones, or just more inclusive ones.” > > Like I’ve tried to explain above, transsexualism is a medical condition. > Transgender is who you are. Transgender is not a medical condition, tho in > many cases, it is increasingly a)making use of hormones and surgery > and b)being confused with transsexualism. > > \>“Being transgender rather than transsexual (however they’re \>defined) shouldn’t reduce your access to hormones and \>surgeries.” > > I’m not saying that being transgender is a “choice” or a > “lifestyle” either. There certainly are decisions that > transgender people need to make - and thank god for the > anti-discrimination legislation we’re seeing coming in > around the world for transgender people. Finally! > > Transsexual people (if you want an easy analogy - thanks Michael!) are black and white. They know they’re male or female. They get medical treatment but it does not make him a man (or her a woman). The person with transsexualism IS a man or woman already. Medical treatment just means they have the missing hormone provided; etc. End of story. > Transgender people are everything in between. > They’re not just the grey, they’re all the colors in between. > > Transsexualism is like having a cleft palate. Fix the palate medically, > thanks very much. Transgender is like having a musical talent; or an > apititude for athletics, mathematics or gynmastics or even being > part Maori or part Aborigine. Some people are transgender, > for whatever reason, and there are many ways to be transgender. > For example, the partMaori person can learn the language, take > part in the culture etc… to varying degrees or they’re just part > Maori and continue with life like usual. > Some will get a Ta Moko tattoo and be their deepest expression of Maori. > Others don’t - never give it a thought and love to see the Haka at the > Bledisloe. There’s a range happening. > > Transsexualism has no range. You are or you aren’t. > Transgender is about range - about diversity - about expression - and > increasingly about the human right people have to self-identify, to have a > culture, their community, their heroes, their language even. > > clear as mud? > ps - and don’t get me started on transsexual people who > have transgender qualities! \ I have a headache coming on! > ;-p > > Craig Andrews > FTM Australia I hope this quote helps make the distinction for some people. I just want to add that while I agree with the majority of it, I don’t think that anything that encourages a divide-and-conquer attitude within trans\* communities is particularly helpful. I also want to acknowlege that other transsexual/transgender/trans\*/genderqueer people on this board may have other opinions based on their different experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766/40 "2003-12-21T06:50:23Z")
Thanks, **phraser** for making me even more confused 😕. We really need to nail down what “gender” is, especailly if, as I suspected, and **phrasers** quote confirms, it is something different from both physiological sex and traditional gender roles. If it is NOT that, in your (everyone on the board-you) opinion, what IS it, other than physiology, gender roles, and genetics? (that quote, and the linked thread, and **Kelly** ’s web site, did not help things.) And yeah, **matt** , that was pretty much what I am saying. Kelly: > [@](#): > > Trying to deny that gender exists is about as irrational and illogical as denying that the color blue exists. Sure, gender exists physiologically, sociologically, and genetically. But it seems that in discussions such as this it is often referred to in a different way, which I cannot pin down even reading the above links. I am _not_ denying that this nebulous definition exists, but trying to deny that it exists would not be irrational and illogical, since it is not very well defined or well-testable in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-a-question-of-gender/219766.md?page=3)