# Politically Correct Stupidity: Episode 3,872,390,576 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768 "2010-08-19T18:32:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/21 "2010-08-19T20:20:29Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > I agree with your post, but wonder why the title refers to “political correctness.” Her actions point to the notion that her religious expression must be embraced by all. And to have a problem with some aspect of that expression is a violation off her rights. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/22 "2010-08-19T20:20:37Z")
If I recall correctly, Disney refers to all Park employees as “cast members”. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/23 "2010-08-19T20:21:38Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > [@magellan01](#): > > > > So, the question is, to what degree should Disneyland, or Ralph Lauren for that matter, be able to manage their brand experience? > > And we answered that question more than four decades ago with the Civil Rights Act. > > Now that you have your answer, you’ll be withdrawing your objection, no? Did Disney tell her that they would not allow Muslims to serve as hostesses in the restaurant? No, they are allowing her to serve in that position if she conforms to a standardized dress code. Is it Disney’s fault that the woman’s religion is not compatible with those standards? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/24 "2010-08-19T20:26:07Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > > [@magellan01](#): > > > > While the title may be a bit strong, this is not a pitting. This episode deserves to be pitted…So, the question is, to what degree should Disneyland, or Ralph Lauren for that matter, be able to manage their brand experience? > > According to [this law firm’s website](http://www.rhddlaw.com/PracticeAreas/Discrimination-Harassment.asp) and the details provided by your link, Disney has been overzealous in managing its brand experience. I couldn’t find the info you’re referring to on that site. And I think Disney is free to manage their brand in a way that THEY think serves them the best. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Could you please identify a brand that has an image that specifically includes the message “No practicing muslim women?”. I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. But the distinction is not if someone is Muslim, it’s the degree to which their appearance and action go to the furtherance of the brand. She was a practicing Muslim the day before she wore the hajib, and guess what? No problem. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/25 "2010-08-19T20:28:28Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > > > She’s a hostess. > > So, what are the duties of a host or hostess? Is she supposed to be serving customers, or is she supposed to acting in a dramatic role? The whole park is a branded experience. Have you not been there? While some employees don actual character costumes, every aspect of the park is brand managed. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/26 "2010-08-19T20:29:41Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > [@magellan01](#): > > > > So, the question is, to what degree should Disneyland, or Ralph Lauren for that matter, be able to manage their brand experience? > > And we answered that question more than four decades ago with the Civil Rights Act. > > Now that you have your answer, you’ll be withdrawing your objection, no? Why don’t YOU trying to answer the question that you decided to reply to? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/27 "2010-08-19T20:31:24Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > > And we answered that question more than four decades ago with the Civil Rights Act. > > > > Now that you have your answer, you’ll be withdrawing your objection, no? > > Did Disney tell her that they would not allow Muslims to serve as hostesses in the restaurant? No, they are allowing her to serve in that position if she conforms to a standardized dress code. > > Is it Disney’s fault that the woman’s religion is not compatible with those standards? Do those standards have anything to do—substantively and beyond some vague and protean worry about “brand management”—with the duties of the position? If not, then fault doesn’t enter into it. We decided, in 1964 and routinely since, that employment policies that disproportionately affect certain races, sexes, or religious group and which policies have only a tenuous or nonexistent relationship to the duties belonging to the position, may not be indulged by the employer—this is separate from whether they have any discriminatory intent or not. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/28 "2010-08-19T20:33:17Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Do those standards have anything to do—substantively and beyond some vague and protean worry about “brand management”—with the duties of the position? Unfortunately, based on the extreme adverse reaction to the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque,” I would say that the worry about "brand management’ is certainly a lot more than “vague and protean.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/29 "2010-08-19T20:33:36Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I agree with her. There’s nothing involved in being a hostess at a hotel that should require you not to wear a hijab. Since when does “managing the experience” mean “pretending Muslims don’t exist?” > > It would be totally different if she were an actor, because then part of her job would be _pretending to be someone_ and that someone might not be Muslim. So wearing a hijab could actually interfere with an essential component of that job. Disney is trying to create a highly branded experience. They find it valuable to do so. And controlling it over the years is one reason why their brand is one of the strongest in the entire world. > [@tim314](#): > > What part of a hostess’s job is compromised by wearing a hijab? Catering to bigots? If Disney’s position is “We don’t want her to dress like a Muslim because we want our bigoted customers to feel more comfortable” then they ought to at least say so. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/30 "2010-08-19T20:37:16Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > If I recall correctly, Disney refers to all Park employees as “cast members”. [That they do:](http://disney.go.com/disneycareers/disneyland/dlr_apply_welcome_Home2.html) 9bolding mine) > [@](#): > > Believe in dreams. Here at the Disneyland® Resort, we make dreams come true every day, not only for our Guests, but for our Cast Members as well. > > **Our Cast Members play a vital role in the show we create at our Resort and we are always looking for quality team players to join our Cast.** If you love helping people make lasting memories and are looking to gain valuable experience with a world-renowned entertainment Company, then we may have just the job you’ve been looking for! > > You can apply for hourly Full Time, Part Time and Seasonal roles in a variety of areas such as Attractions, Merchandise, **Food Operations, Costuming, Custodial, Hotel Operations,** and more! And many roles are eligible for the Disney Difference, **our Cast benefits package** , which includes complimentary Theme Park admission, discounts on dining and merchandise, health benefits, retirement plans, sick leave, paid vacation and a variety of training opportunities to help further your Disney career. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/31 "2010-08-19T20:41:36Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Do those standards have anything to do—substantively and beyond some vague and protean worry about “brand management”—with the duties of the position? > > If not, then fault doesn’t enter into it. We decided, in 1964 and routinely since, that employment policies that disproportionately affect certain races, sexes, or religious group and which policies have only a tenuous or nonexistent relationship to the duties belonging to the position, may not be indulged by the employer—this is separate from whether they have any discriminatory intent or not. No one is arguing that her hajib wearing interferes with her doing the _physical_ duties she had as a hostess. It’s about the brand. You seem to not hold branding in very high esteem from the way you refer to it in your first sentence. The fact is that it is VERY important to a company. Perhaps the most valuable thing a company has. The point is that this “cast member’s” actions are not enhancing the Disney brand, they are distracting from it. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/32 "2010-08-19T20:41:55Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > It’s a Disney hotel, I would think that Disney would have the right to enforce a dress code. However, if the Employee Handbook doesn’t alreay have a dress code, it’s going to look bad if they start enforcing one on her, now. It’s certainly nothing new. Disney is pretty famous for having extremely strict dress and grooming codes for its “cast members”, which include every employee that interacts with the public down to the girl who works the cash register at the Disney Store in the mall in Knoxville. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/33 "2010-08-19T20:45:09Z")
From Magellan’s link below: > [@](#): > > Any requests for an exception to the Disney Look policy for religious beliefs or questions regarding the accommodation of medical restrictions or religious beliefs must be directed to the Cast Image and Appearance office or the Human Resources representative. It seems they’re up front about it being an issue. If the girl didn’t warn them going in, it seems like it’s her fault. Not that this validates Magellan’s partisan stab in the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/34 "2010-08-19T20:45:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > > [@tim314](#): > > > > I agree with her. There’s nothing involved in being a hostess at a hotel that should require you not to wear a hijab. Since when does “managing the experience” mean “pretending Muslims don’t exist?” > > > > It would be totally different if she were an actor, because then part of her job would be _pretending to be someone_ and that someone might not be Muslim. So wearing a hijab could actually interfere with an essential component of that job. > > Disney is trying to create a highly branded experience. They find it valuable to do so. And controlling it over the years is one reason why their brand is one of the strongest in the entire world. > > > [@tim314](#): > > > > What part of a hostess’s job is compromised by wearing a hijab? Catering to bigots? If Disney’s position is “We don’t want her to dress like a Muslim because we want our bigoted customers to feel more comfortable” then they ought to at least say so. > > :rolleyes: You’re avoiding the question: to what legitimate end can an employer restrict the wearing of a hijab? “It doesn’t match our brand” is far too vague to be anything better than “We don’t like hijabs”, which in turn is no more a justification than “We don’t like Muslims”. IOW, there needs to be a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification that justifies discrimination. Or do I have this right, lawyers? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/35 "2010-08-19T20:51:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He got conned into buying the whole set of “Liberals Gone Wild!” videos, and is hoping to off load them on us. Well, fool me once… Why do I now picture Hillary prancing around in the buff, possibly with bead necklaces involved ? I don’t know, but I know I hate you for it. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/36 "2010-08-19T20:52:42Z")
Reading between the lines, this woman is not objecting to wearing the uniform required for “cast members” working in “food operations”: she simply wants to wear a headscarf as well as the uniform. So, is that a reasonable accommodation for her religious beliefs? (One problem is that Disney has decided that [this costume](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Princesss_jazmine.jpg) is appropriate for a young Muslim woman – having done their research by finding out what American men fantasise about them wearing, rather that by finding out what most Muslim women prefer to wear.) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/37 "2010-08-19T20:52:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > From Magellan’s link below: > > > [@](#): > > > > Any requests for an exception to the Disney Look policy for religious beliefs or questions regarding the accommodation of medical restrictions or religious beliefs must be directed to the Cast Image and Appearance office or the Human Resources representative. > > It seems they’re up front about it being an issue. If the girl didn’t warn them going in, it seems like it’s her fault. > > Not that this validates Magellan’s partisan stab in the thread title. I guess it’s only partisan if you accept that the stupidity of political correctness is much more closely aligned with the left than the right. Congratulations for getting something right. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/38 "2010-08-19T20:54:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > From Magellan’s link below: > > It seems they’re up front about it being an issue. If the girl didn’t warn them going in, it seems like it’s her fault. > > > > Not that this validates Magellan’s partisan stab in the thread title. > > I guess it’s only partisan if you accept that the stupidity of political correctness is much more closely aligned with the left than the right. Congratulations for getting something right. 😉 Oh surely it’s more aligned with the left. The right is all about being bigoted jerks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/39 "2010-08-19T20:55:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I couldn’t find the info you’re referring to on that site. And I think Disney is free to manage their brand in a way that THEY think serves them the best. And I think that employment shouldn’t be contingent on race, sex, creed, religion, and a few other categories. Unless the head covering significantly interferes with her duties, she should be able to wear it. I don’t really have a problem denying Disney a right to project a “No muslims here” image. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768/40 "2010-08-19T20:56:47Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > > > Do those standards have anything to do—substantively and beyond some vague and protean worry about “brand management”—with the duties of the position? > > Unfortunately, based on the extreme adverse reaction to the so-called “Ground Zero Mosque,” I would say that the worry about "brand management’ is certainly a lot more than “vague and protean.” OK, I was worried that those two words might trip up the Tea Partiers among us. Vague = ambiguous, equivocal, unarticulated. The worries about “brand management” are vague because we are never informed how, concretely, they might affect the ability to do the job. We are instead treated to generalities: it might make people upset, the restaurant just has a look. Here, on the other hand, would be an example of a not-vague worry: the position involves being in close physical proximity to a device with fast-moving components that might catch a person’s flowing headgear and, in so doing, jeopardize that person’s safety. Protean = shapeshifting, variable. This is related to vagueness. Protean worries are helpful to those who would like to avoid the requirements of the Civil Rights Act because, when you refuse to provide a fixed, concrete set of problems the headgear poses, it is impossible to craft reasonable accommodation around it. Frankly, the opposition to the Cordoba House, which issued from much more heat than light, is perhaps an object lesson in “vague and protean worries.” Of course, we live in an age where experiencing feelings is too often mistaken for thinking about ideas, so I suppose the confusion is not all that surprising. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politically-correct-stupidity-episode-3-872-390-576/550768.md?page=3)