# Politicians lying directly about core beliefs and plans **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 7, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259 "2016-09-07T06:15:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/41 "2016-09-07T17:06:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > …even if you don’t like Republicans at least they’re honest? You’re right, that’s the least. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/42 "2016-09-07T17:09:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > …Would you like me to continue on how, using your own standards to disqualify examples of Republican perfidy, all your examples of pointing fingers at Democrats are BS? He might not, but it’s certainly all right with me. Not that it matters, just sayin’, is all, ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/43 "2016-09-07T18:27:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, maybe I’m wrong, I don’t listen to Limbaugh or generic Trump supporters. Maybe it’s because I actually do speak to more liberals than conservatives both here and in my social life. > > I do know that for my own part I have never heard a Republican candidate take an issue stance that I knew he didn’t actually believe. I hear that all the time with Democrats though, especially those running in red states. [You want to discuss Walker and the right to work laws?](http://www.wpr.org/years-walker-said-he-wasnt-interested-right-work) I think the only thing I can say about the OP without retreating to the pit thread about you is that you are not arguing in good faith here. Even for you, this seems likes an intellectually dishonest thread. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/44 "2016-09-07T18:31:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Politicians make promises they can’t keep all the time. They may also fudge their beliefs in order to help tamp down opposition to their candidacy based on particularly problematic issue positions. Sometimes they might even take a direct stand, but after an outcry, “clarify” that stand. > > But one development that seems to be fairly recent, starting around the Clinton years, is taking stands on issues, usually very firm stands, that those in the know are quite certain are the opposite of what they actually believe, and more importantly the opposite of what they will actually do, in order to nullify perfectly valid attacks on their plans and intentions. > > This is not a “both parties do it” issue either as far as I can tell. This one’s only the Democrats, and I’ve got examples. However, anyone that can come up with apples-to-apples counterexamples of Republicans doing it are welcome to correct my ignorance if I’m wrong: > > 1. Democrats’ perennial opposition to free trade agreements as candidates and support for them as Presidents. Clinton’s TPP opposition is the latest example. > 2. Obama’s stance on gay marriage > 3. Obama’s stance on the individual mandate > 4. Democrats’ stance on gun control, although that may qualify as a “fudge” since they never explicitly promised not to pursue gun control measures. > 5. Religion. Although no President has been caught directly lying about their faith(well, Obama kinda was when he revealed his gay marriage position was his “political position” after saying it was a matter of his Christian faith during the campaign), some Dopers have said in another thread that they’d like a candidate to be a non-believer in reality. This seems to me an endorsement of the tactic. Fair or not fair? > Any Republican examples? Remember, promises that can’t be kept aren’t apples-to-apples. Everyone does that. Mexico is going to pay for the wall. No they aren’t. An apples to apples comparison would be Trump simply not wanting to build the wall once taking office. Does Donald Trump not exist in the world you live in? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/45 "2016-09-07T18:33:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 1. Religion. > […] > Any Republican examples? You really believe in his heart that Trump is the [evangelical christian candidate?](http://gawker.com/jerry-falwell-jr-makes-trump-the-official-evangelical-1755200356) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/46 "2016-09-07T18:47:28Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > You really believe in his heart that Trump is the [evangelical christian candidate?](http://gawker.com/jerry-falwell-jr-makes-trump-the-official-evangelical-1755200356) His teleprompter speech at the black church was so clearly painful for him to deliver that the insincerity practically screamed out. It is obvious that he believes none of what he said, and that he would do zero to change things. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/47 "2016-09-07T19:09:53Z")
I think the big difference is that democrats are fond of what I call the progressive “if you give a mouse a cookie strategy”. It’s based on the idea that they know that nobody today would support them in their true goals, if those goals were known. Obamacare is a prime example, nobody likes obamacare and in fact I believe it was designed to fail, but it gets them closer to their real goal of universal government healthcare. In fact when it is shown to fail it’ll be used as an excuse to move healthcare even more in the direction of government control. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/48 "2016-09-07T19:32:44Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I think the big difference is that democrats are fond of what I call the progressive “if you give a mouse a cookie strategy”. It’s based on the idea that they know that nobody today would support them in their true goals, if those goals were known. Obamacare is a prime example, nobody likes obamacare and in fact I believe it was designed to fail, but it gets them closer to their real goal of universal government healthcare. In fact when it is shown to fail it’ll be used as an excuse to move healthcare even more in the direction of government control. Nobody would support them, eh? In a recent Gallup poll, [58% of Americans](http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-fed-funded-healthcare-system.aspx) favored a federally-funded universal health care system. The ACA is a crappy compromise because it had to win the votes of conservative Democrats in Congress. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/49 "2016-09-07T19:32:47Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I think the big difference is that democrats are fond of what I call the progressive “if you give a mouse a cookie strategy”. It’s based on the idea that they know that nobody today would support them in their true goals, if those goals were known. Obamacare is a prime example, nobody likes obamacare and in fact I believe it was designed to fail, but it gets them closer to their real goal of universal government healthcare. In fact when it is shown to fail it’ll be used as an excuse to move healthcare even more in the direction of government control. I don’t think you quite have it – it’s more like liberals are pure evil and want to destroy America, and will utilize any dishonesty in order to hurt America and Americans. Does that sound better? ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/50 "2016-09-07T19:35:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Nobody would support them, eh? > > In a recent Gallup poll, [58% of Americans](http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-fed-funded-healthcare-system.aspx) favored a federally-funded universal health care system. > > The ACA is a crappy compromise because it had to win the votes of conservative Democrats in Congress. You’re proving my point. Back when Obama was elected that was nowhere near true. Hillary proposing it during the Clinton administration almost destroyed his presidency. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/51 "2016-09-07T19:37:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think you quite have it – it’s more like liberals are pure evil and want to destroy America, and will utilize any dishonesty in order to hurt America and Americans. Does that sound better? I think one of the first examples was actually by Abraham Lincoln. There is no way that Lincoln could have freed the slaves at the start of his presidency so he acted like he didn’t support freeing slaves. He evolved on the issue as the country did. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/52 "2016-09-07T19:44:16Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > You’re proving my point. Back when Obama was elected that was nowhere near true. Hillary proposing it during the Clinton administration almost destroyed his presidency. So, what you’re arguing is that legislators pass laws when they will be popular, and not before? I am shocked. Shocked! ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/53 "2016-09-07T19:44:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Any Republican examples? Remember, promises that can’t be kept aren’t apples-to-apples. Everyone does that. Mexico is going to pay for the wall. No they aren’t. An apples to apples comparison would be Trump simply not wanting to build the wall once taking office. OK, so we can only make an apples-to-apples comparison by psychically reading the candidate’s mind to divine their true intent. And of course we can’t evaluate the nutjob’s sincerity without actually electing them. Gotcha. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/54 "2016-09-07T19:53:48Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > . . . Interestingly, one of the recurring themes is “gay marriage” - lots of people against it when it was less popular who subsequently “evolved”. Does that actually count as “lying?” The facts – the level of public popularity, and the judicial atmosphere – changed. That’s like accusing a huge swath of the Congress of having “lied” in 1941, declaring war after the attack on Pearl Harbor, despite earlier having been against entering the war. They didn’t lie; they changed their minds when the situation changed. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/55 "2016-09-07T19:56:49Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I think the big difference is that democrats are fond of what I call the progressive “if you give a mouse a cookie strategy”. It’s based on the idea that they know that nobody today would support them in their true goals, if those goals were known. Obamacare is a prime example, nobody likes obamacare and in fact I believe it was designed to fail, but it gets them closer to their real goal of universal government healthcare. In fact when it is shown to fail it’ll be used as an excuse to move healthcare even more in the direction of government control. Sure. And when Republicans insist that abortion providers have admitting privileges to hospitals, their true goal is to to make sure that abortions are as safe as possible. That’s not deceptive at all :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/56 "2016-09-07T20:00:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by adaher View Post > Any Republican examples? Remember, promises that can’t be kept aren’t apples-to-apples. Everyone does that. Mexico is going to pay for the wall. No they aren’t. An apples to apples comparison would be Trump simply not wanting to build the wall once taking office. okay, I’ll bite. I am convinced Trump has no interest in building a fucking wall if–god forbid–he got elected. He doesn’t give a shit about immigration, taxes, the military, the veterans, the economy, or fuck all. The only glimmer of hope in the event he got elected is he doesn’t actually have any interest or intention of doing any of the stupid shit he talks about. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/57 "2016-09-07T20:10:59Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > okay, I’ll bite. I am convinced Trump has no interest in building a fucking wall if–god forbid–he got elected. He doesn’t give a shit about immigration, taxes, the military, the veterans, the economy, or fuck all. The only glimmer of hope in the event he got elected is he doesn’t actually have any interest or intention of doing any of the stupid shit he talks about. Now wait a minute. I think he would try to lower taxes. For the wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/58 "2016-09-07T20:16:44Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Now wait a minute. I think he would try to lower taxes. For the wealthy. I really don’t think he cares even about this. > [@](#): > > In an Aug. 26 interview, the host noted that `carried interest` would affect not only hedge fund managers, but also people in limited real estate partnerships like Trump, asking `So you are proposing you'd like to raise taxes on yourself?` > > `That's right. I'm OK with it,` Trump said. `You've seen my statements, I do very well, I don't mind paying some taxes. The middle class is getting clobbered in this country. I know people in hedge funds, they pay almost nothing and it's ridiculous, OK?` ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/59 "2016-09-07T20:43:35Z")
He’s been saying that for awhile now. It’s hard to decide what Trump believes because he has very little consistency. Now we’re not even sure about immigration. That just leaves free trade, about the only issue he hasn’t wavered on. Trump isn’t the only Republican though. What’s also interesting is that the very issues you cite where Republicans don’t believe what they say supposedly are the very issues Democrats attack them on! Democrats apparently believe Republicans are serious about these things. That’s the big difference. Democrats lie to red state and moderate voters to NEUTRALIZE attacks on certain issues. Republicans, assuming they are lying(which I have not yet been convinced about), are apparently taking positions Democrats like to see them take because it makes them easier to beat. If Republicans did what Democrats do, they would look a lot like Mitt Romney’s campaign against Ed Kennedy. That is actually an example which was brought up indirectly, so there’s one from when, 1996? Romney lied his ass off to try to beat Kennedy. He also failed. Unfortunately, many red state voters buy this bullshit from Democrats and send them to DC where they become completely different from what voters wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259/60 "2016-09-07T20:48:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > He’s been saying that for awhile now. It’s hard to decide what Trump believes because he has very little consistency. Now we’re not even sure about immigration. That just leaves free trade, about the only issue he hasn’t wavered on. > > . He doesn’t care about free trade either. He’s an old man with no core beliefs or world view (other than building a brand). It’s a simple as that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politicians-lying-directly-about-core-beliefs-and-plans/765259.md?page=4)