# Politics, Cranick, and the Firefighters Who Let His House Burn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 7, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369 "2010-10-07T16:22:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/21 "2010-10-07T19:32:50Z")
Garden variety Libertarian. I voted for Obama. I’ve voted previously for both Democrats and Republicans. I think they had every right to let the house burn down because it [wasn’t the first time](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/janine-r-wedel/emshadow-eliteem-the-smal_b_753796.html) the moron had started a fire and not paid the fee. Last paragraph has relevant details, the rest of the post is worthless. He had a chimney fire 3 years ago, also conveniently “forgot” the fee, they put the fire out and let him pay for it - not pay for the true cost of putting out the fire, oh no, for the $75 annual fee. :rolleyes: Sounds like the guy got a pretty good deal, huh? How, after _that_ is his behavior excusable a second time? You don’t see uninsured drivers wailing for Geico to replace their totaled car after an accident, do you? You take the risk, you deserve the outcome. Life and death wasn’t at stake here; it was the guy’s house with no people trapped inside of it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/22 "2010-10-07T19:36:23Z")
I’m a liberal, and I marked that the firefighters made the best decision they could have, but I also think that the county made an absolutely terrible decision that led to that. If things were set up sanely, then the firefighting fee would be a mandatory tax, and the firefighters would be required to fight the fire. Quoth **RTFirefly** : > [@](#): > > As I understand it, Cranick offered to pay the firefighters to put out the fire. > > The best option was for the firefighters to take him up on this offer. Why not? They were there, and he was apparently willing to pay their actual costs. If this is so, what principle was involved in their refusing to do so under these circumstances? If he didn’t have cash on hand and on the spot, then for all practical purposes, he didn’t offer to pay. When the firefighters accept offers like this, more often than not, the money _never_ materializes, and even when it does, it takes many years and much work to get it. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/23 "2010-10-07T19:40:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m a liberal, and I marked that the firefighters made the best decision they could have, but I also think that the county made an absolutely terrible decision that led to that. If things were set up sanely, then the firefighting fee would be a mandatory tax, and the firefighters would be required to fight the fire. This is my feeling as well. I grew up in a rural area that was covered by a local volunteer fire department. This was not an opt-in situation; everyone paid for it via taxes. Having a situation where certain houses have fire coverage and others don’t seems completely insane to me. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/24 "2010-10-07T19:41:49Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > So if it cost the fire department $2000 to put out the fire, they should have done so, and billed him for $2000. I’m curious – the first time the fire department put out a fire for him and he paid after the fact, did he pay the full cost or just the $75? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/25 "2010-10-07T19:44:47Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > > [@RTFirefly](#): > > > > So if it cost the fire department $2000 to put out the fire, they should have done so, and billed him for $2000. > > I’m curious – the first time the fire department put out a fire for him and he paid after the fact, did he pay the full cost or just the $75? The latter. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/26 "2010-10-07T19:52:36Z")
I’m a Liberal, and I think the Fire Department did the best they \*had \*to do. I really think the best answer would’ve been to work to put the fire out and then bill Cranick… but, of course, there’s no guarantee that Cranick would pay \*that \*bill, either, so it’s unlikely that they would’ve gotten recompensed for the considerable effort it would’ve cost. So, no, I don’t know what the hell should’ve been done. However, I do believe that this situation highlights one of the failures of the Libertarian philosophy. If Libertarians got their way, I’d be willing to bet we’d see this situation, and many others like it, _all the time_. ---
**Author:** ![Tixenfleaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9a140/32.png) [@Tixenfleaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tixenfleaz)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/27 "2010-10-07T19:55:15Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > Subjectively, if I was one of the firefighters, I couldn’t just stand there and watch the house burn. The very idea would be anathema, and I’d find inaction impossible. I’ve been a paid FF for over twenty years and I can’t imagine standing by and watching a home burn while the owner pleads for me to put it out. If I did that I’d have to cover every mirror in my house. For all they knew, the guy might’ve been flat broke and was about to lose what little he had. Kurt Vonnegut once said: ‘‘I can think of no more stirring symbol of man’s humanity to man than a fire truck.’’ Schmaltzy, sure, but true enough I think. These fellows seem to have lost the thread of that. It’s a crappy way to fund a Fire Department. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/28 "2010-10-07T20:05:39Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > 1.) \*You \*would have saved the house anyway, or you think \*the firefighters \*should have? Both. Although I understand why the firefighters did not and will not criticize their decision. Legitimate ambivalence – not neutrality, not uncaring, but (literally) having conflicting feelings about something – is weird, and not something I encounter often. > [@](#): > > 2.) Imagine you are one of the firefighters. You decide to put out Cranick’s fire, even though he didn’t pay. The fire rages out of control and jumps to the house of his neighbor, who has been paying his fees. You are now out of water. Either both houses burn, or Cranick’s is saved while the house of the person who paid burns. Do you still think you made the right choice? Yes, I’d still think I made the correct decision. Your hypothetical indicates that we, as firefighters, are terrible at our jobs. > [@](#): > > 3.) Imagine you are one of the firefighters. You decide to put out Cranick’s fire. He is further supported in his belief that he will receive services he doesn’t pay for. His neighbors have further evidence that they don’t need to pay, either. You lose more and more fees. The department decides it can no longer afford to provide services to Obion County. Any fire that starts there from that point forward will have no attention at all. Do you still think you made the right choice? Yes, because in my competing hypothetical, firefighting is a government provided service, funded via whatever method of billing is decided upon (usually a tax, I suppose). To me, this is a prime example of both _community_ (same root as _commune_) and why government exists in the first place. Again, objectively, I have to say that the community made a group decision to have things this way. Cranick, as an individual, has now had to eat the fruit of that group decision. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/29 "2010-10-07T20:14:40Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > Again, objectively, I have to say that the community made a group decision to have things this way. Cranick, as an individual, has now had to eat the fruit of that group decision. What? It’s the community’s fault that he didn’t pay and therefore have fire protection? Good Lord! ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/30 "2010-10-07T20:20:28Z")
I’m flamingly liberal, and I think this is a crappy way to run a county, but seriously folks, we’re talking about $75 a year, and an asshole who’d already screwed the fire department over once. Fuck him. I’ve absolutely no doubt that the firefighters on the scene would have sprang into action if there were anyone inside the house, but they’re under no obligation to risk their lives to protect property he CHOSE not to protect himself. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/31 "2010-10-07T20:23:23Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > > [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > > > Again, objectively, I have to say that the community made a group decision to have things this way. Cranick, as an individual, has now had to eat the fruit of that group decision. > > What? It’s the community’s fault that he didn’t pay and therefore have fire protection? Good Lord! You’ll note that I didn’t lay blame anywhere or on anyone; in fact, as I’ve said twice in two posts now, I’m (literally) ambivalent about the situation. So now it’s three for three. The laying blame and corresponding outrage…Good Lord! That’s all in _your_ head… ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/32 "2010-10-07T20:24:27Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > However, I do believe that this situation highlights one of the failures of the Libertarian philosophy. If Libertarians got their way, I’d be willing to bet we’d see this situation, and many others like it, _all the time_. Until people get the picture that freeloading does not pay off. I’m not libertarian, I do lean conservative, and I think the fire dept made the right call. They gave this guy a pass once before, so he can’t even argue ignorance for not paying the bill. He tried to beat the system. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/33 "2010-10-07T20:30:59Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > You’ll note that I didn’t lay blame anywhere or on anyone; in fact, as I’ve said twice in two posts now, I’m (literally) ambivalent about the situation. So now it’s three for three. > > The laying blame and corresponding outrage…Good Lord! That’s all in _your_ head… Outrage? You must be thinking of someone else. You are absolutely blaming a bad outcome on the decision made by the community. Unless your reference to eating fruit was literal and involved some aspect of the story heretofore unheard. Or unless you don’t consider the loss of the home to be a bad outcome. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/34 "2010-10-07T20:33:29Z")
The decision by the community was a bad one in that it allowed people to opt out. When it’s something like a fire that can affect property or lives other than the insured’s, opting out is really not an option. It’s why car insurance is mandatory: you can hurt others on the road, not just yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/35 "2010-10-07T20:40:26Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > > [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > > > You’ll note that I didn’t lay blame anywhere or on anyone; in fact, as I’ve said twice in two posts now, I’m (literally) ambivalent about the situation. So now it’s three for three. > > > > The laying blame and corresponding outrage…Good Lord! That’s all in _your_ head… > > Outrage? You must be thinking of someone else. Sorry, perhaps I misread your “What?” and “Good Lord!” inclusions incorrectly. To me, they indicated outrage, albeit of a minor variety. You choose an appropriate descriptor and I’ll accept it. > [@](#): > > You are absolutely blaming a bad outcome on the decision made by the community. Unless your reference to eating fruit was literal and involved some aspect of the story heretofore unheard. Or unless you don’t consider the loss of the home to be a bad outcome. Which is it? Hmmm. Are those the only options you can come up with? Really? Perhaps you should put just a teensy bit more thought into it. It’s OK, I’ll wait… ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/36 "2010-10-07T20:43:09Z")
> [@Tixenfleaz](#): > > > [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > > > Subjectively, if I was one of the firefighters, I couldn’t just stand there and watch the house burn. The very idea would be anathema, and I’d find inaction impossible. > > I’ve been a paid FF for over twenty years and I can’t imagine standing by and watching a home burn while the owner pleads for me to put it out. If I did that I’d have to cover every mirror in my house. For all they knew, the guy might’ve been flat broke and was about to lose what little he had. > > Kurt Vonnegut once said: ‘‘I can think of no more stirring symbol of man’s humanity to man than a fire truck.’’ Schmaltzy, sure, but true enough I think. These fellows seem to have lost the thread of that. > > It’s a crappy way to fund a Fire Department. This. Particularly the “cover every mirror” bit. I find their (in)action absolutely unconscionable. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/37 "2010-10-07T20:56:44Z")
Amazing that anybody thinks this was a proper way to act. This wasn’t insurance. This was a public service. The government shouldn’t be in the business of providing pay to play services, that’s something for the private sector. The worst part of this is that firefighters, or anyone else, would not take reasonable steps to put out a house fire, under any circumstance. All people are obligated to help in such a circumstance. Government officials even more so. The only downside to the fire department exinquishing that blaze was a potential loss of fees in the future. That could have been corrected by implementing a new system of funding the fire department. What is the means of correcting for the loss of a home? I have never heard of another case where fire departments refused to assist in extinquishing a fire outside their district, or over a question of payment. This incident brings dishonor to a noble profession. Firefighters are the people who run into burning buildings, not out of them. No fireman I know, volunteer or professional, would have stood by and watched a house burn down without attempting to help. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/38 "2010-10-07T20:58:31Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > You choose an appropriate descriptor and I’ll accept it. Bemused. > [@](#): > > Hmmm. Are those the only options you can come up with? Really? Perhaps you should put just a teensy bit more thought into it. > > It’s OK, I’ll wait… If you want me to understand you, you will have to tell me what you are talking about. If not, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/39 "2010-10-07T21:00:03Z")
I lived not to far from Obion County for several years. That type of arrangement isn’t uncommon in rural areas that depend either on volunteer fire departments, or contracting with the nearest city. It’s no secret that you have to sign up your home or business to be protected. It’s no secret when the dues are paid, and it’s no secret that fire departments have in the past (and will in the future) refused to serve those who don’t pay. Sure, it’s a stupid way to do things, but Crannick knew what he had to do, and he didn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/40 "2010-10-07T21:06:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Amazing that anybody thinks this was a proper way to act. This wasn’t insurance. This was a public service. The government shouldn’t be in the business of providing pay to play services, that’s something for the private sector. The government _shouldn’t_ be in that business, but in this case, they were. Given that they were, I can’t fault the firefighters for acknowledging that reality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369.md?page=3)