# Politics, Cranick, and the Firefighters Who Let His House Burn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 7, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369 "2010-10-07T16:22:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/61 "2010-10-08T15:22:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > While Chronos claims that the fire department was unlikely to actually collect payment in a reasonable timeframe, the fact is that Cranick did offer to pay whatever they wanted. > > > > Sounds like it’s more like whether a car mechanic is obligated to fix your car if you bring your checkbook with you, but the mechanic doesn’t have any way of knowing whether there’s money in your account until after you pay and he tries to deposit your check. > > Obviously we cannot say as a fact whether or not Cranick would have paid up as promised after the fire was put out. But this is a person who consistently refused to pay $75 for fire protection. It’s not unreasonable to regard him as a risk for not paying a $3000 bill for fire protection. Agreed. But the fire department would have had no trouble getting a judgment against Cranick from the appropriate court, maybe even slapping a lien on the house which would have still been intact. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/62 "2010-10-08T15:25:30Z")
Well, that would fix everything. For Cranick, anyway. Oh wait, I forgot… fuck him. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/63 "2010-10-08T15:29:04Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Everyone who says that the firefighters had an obligation to help: > > 1.) Are you currently moving to Obion County to start a volunteer fire department? If not, why not? I’m also not traveling to New Zealand to give a sheep an IPod, which would make about as much sense. > [@](#): > > 2.) When was the last time you provided what you did for a living to someone who skipped out on a bill? If someone stiffed you once, did you provide the goods or services to them a second time? When was the last time that I argued with someone drawing analogies that were this far off the mark? All too recently, I’m sure, but I’m going to have to try to break the habit. > [@](#): > > 3.) Why do you think that a firefighter has an obligation to risk their life to save property, when the owner of the property has so little regard for them as to refuse to pay a minimal fee for said services, even when those services have been of concrete benefit to him in the past? I don’t believe a firefighter EVER has an obligation to risk his or her life in a fire, once it’s been determined that no lives are at risk in the first place. Not that that has anything to do with this discussion, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/64 "2010-10-08T15:35:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > Obviously we cannot say as a fact whether or not Cranick would have paid up as promised after the fire was put out. But this is a person who consistently refused to pay $75 for fire protection. It’s not unreasonable to regard him as a risk for not paying a $3000 bill for fire protection. > > Agreed. But the fire department would have had no trouble getting a judgment against Cranick from the appropriate court, maybe even slapping a lien on the house which would have still been intact. So the FD would have to jump through legal hoops to collect? This is not all that dissimilar from a homeowners association. HOAs have to jump through legal hoops to collect from members who don’t pay and I can assure you, my HOA spends a lot more money on their lawyer and collection agencies than they get from the fee/fine collections. But, they’ve got to do it or else nobody would pay. I guarantee you this FD would eventually run into people who will just never, ever pay up. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/65 "2010-10-08T15:54:43Z")
I think the solution is pretty easy. The fire department should adopt this policy: If you call us, we will come. If you paid your $75, you’re all set. If not, we’ll have you sign a paper authorizing us to bill you $2000. The homeowner is a cheapskate, but the firemen should have put the fire out and found a way to bill him for actual costs. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/66 "2010-10-08T16:04:38Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > I still answered “_should’ve saved the house anyway_”. Subjectively, if I was one of the firefighters, I couldn’t just stand there and watch the house burn. The very idea would be anathema, and I’d find inaction impossible. In the time of crisis, perform your calling. ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/67 "2010-10-08T16:30:30Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > > [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > > > I still answered “_should’ve saved the house anyway_”. Subjectively, if I was one of the firefighters, I couldn’t just stand there and watch the house burn. The very idea would be anathema, and I’d find inaction impossible. > > In the time of crisis, perform your calling. Taking into mind limited resources, right? ---
**Author:** ![lindsaybluth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lindsaybluth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lindsaybluth)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/68 "2010-10-08T16:34:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I didn’t realize these crazy setups had a lot of history to them. There’s actually a track record of instances where people have offered on the spot to pay for their fires to be put out, and failed to pay later on? You’re actually surprised by this in any way? Also, let’s be clear that paying $75 isn’t the same as paying for the _actual_ cost to put it out, which should be paid by anyone sans insurance. It’s also safe to say that a guy who doesn’t buy fire insurance can’t be counted on to foot the many thousand dollar bill to actually put his home out. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think the solution is pretty easy. The fire department should adopt this policy: > > If you call us, we will come. If you paid your $75, you’re all set. If not, we’ll have you sign a paper authorizing us to bill you $2000. > > The homeowner is a cheapskate, but the firemen should have put the fire out and found a way to bill him for actual costs. This is the most useless point yet. How are they to ensure they’ll get the money? For all you know he’s up to his ears in debt. History has shown people don’t make good on paying back the FD sans insurance, why would this guy - with a HISTORY of his own! - pay up? ---
**Author:** ![crazyjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@crazyjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazyjoe)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/69 "2010-10-08T17:01:54Z")
I love all the people who are saying it’s trivial to collect on a $2k debt. A few hours of a lawyer’s time will cost you that, so now you have to try to collect 4K. From a guy who wouldn’t pay $75 and probably doesn’t have much in the way of valuable property to attach. Seriously, collection agencies can ruin your credit, but they buy the debts for pennies on the dollar typically because they know they have a very low chance of covering their expenses. They’re lucky if they get 50 cents on the dollar, and just doubling the bill isn’t exactly legal or any more likely to get you back in the black. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/70 "2010-10-08T17:07:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m also not traveling to New Zealand to give a sheep an IPod, which would make about as much sense. Do you think that someone else has an obligation to travel to New Zealand to give a sheep an iPod? If so, why would you even make that terrible analogy? The point is that you think that the firefighters had an obligation to try to save the house. (And if you don’t think that, why are you responding to questions intended for those who do?) > [@](#): > > When was the last time that I argued with someone drawing analogies that were this far off the mark? It’s not an analogy. It’s exactly what happened. Cranick refused to pay the fee that would entitle him to the services of the fire department. There was a fire at his house. The firefighters put it out anyway, that time. He kept not paying the fee. There was another fire. This time, they didn’t put it out. It’s exactly the same scenario; I’m just suggesting you apply it to yourself. Since you think it’s so easy to tell others what they should have done in the same situation. > [@](#): > > I don’t believe a firefighter EVER has an obligation to risk his or her life in a fire, once it’s been determined that no lives are at risk in the first place. > > Not that that has anything to do with this discussion, of course. Except that Cranick and his family were all _safe_. The only thing that was in danger was the house. A piece of property. So you just contradicted yourself again there. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/71 "2010-10-08T17:07:48Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > This is the most useless point yet. How are they to ensure they’ll get the money? For all you know he’s up to his ears in debt. History has shown people don’t make good on paying back the FD sans insurance, why would this guy - with a HISTORY of his own! - pay up? You slap a lien on his house if he doesn’t pay up. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/72 "2010-10-08T17:10:41Z")
Which will be a pain in his ass on the off chance he wants to sell. Otherwise, it’s life as usual for him. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/73 "2010-10-08T17:29:11Z")
Does this mean that anyone who cheated on their taxes, like, say, _buying something over the Internet in a state that requires a disclosure yet fails to do so_ should be disqualified for receiving **any** state services? So if any of you who saved a few dollars in sales tax (not hard to come up to $75 over the course of a year) get a call from your alarm company that the burglar alarm was tripped (note, you’re safe), it’s okay for the police to arrive, see the burglar carrying out your stuff, letting your pets out, etc., and only wave hi to him? Only do something if he gets too close to your neighbor’s property? There’s a whole juicy range of services you’ll be unable to avail yourself of, isn’t there. And hey, fail to file some gambling income or overreported a deduction on your Fed return? Wow, look out! ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/74 "2010-10-08T17:29:56Z")
The poor fire department was so screwed in this situation. No way was that guy going to pay after the fact. They had no obligation to help him, and an obligation to those who do pay them to conserve resources. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/75 "2010-10-08T17:35:55Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Which will be a pain in his ass on the off chance he wants to sell. Otherwise, it’s life as usual for him. Eventually the house will be sold, by him or his heirs. At that point, someone would have to make good on the $2000. In addition, they can garnish his wages and/or tax refunds to get it. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/76 "2010-10-08T17:40:02Z")
Sure, they _could_, but why bother when the existence of the house is of no value to anyone other than Cranick? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/77 "2010-10-08T17:40:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > > [@lindsaybluth](#): > > > > This is the most useless point yet. How are they to ensure they’ll get the money? For all you know he’s up to his ears in debt. History has shown people don’t make good on paying back the FD sans insurance, why would this guy - with a HISTORY of his own! - pay up? > > You slap a lien on his house if he doesn’t pay up. As I tried to convey in my anology with the HOA, just slapping a lien on his house is easier than it sounds. There are legal fees. You need a court order. If they did this with every house whose fire they put out despite the owner not paying a fee, they’d lose money on this practice. You put a lien on his house…now what? Odds are, old Mr. Cranick doesn’t really care and you’ll never see that $2000 or $3000 or whatever. It’s much easier (and cheaper) for the FD to refuse service to someone who did not pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/78 "2010-10-08T17:48:11Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Everyone who says that the firefighters had an obligation to help: I think you’ve read and understand my own position. Do you really want me to answer your second set of questions? Even knowing that I think they’re non-substantive (and that my answers would reflect that)? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/79 "2010-10-08T18:18:57Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Does this mean that anyone who cheated on their taxes, like, say, _buying something over the Internet in a state that requires a disclosure yet fails to do so_ should be disqualified for receiving **any** state services? It doesn’t equate. Taxes aren’t opt-in, and services like the fire and police departments provide in areas where they are paid for by taxes are also not opt-in. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Eventually the house will be sold, by him or his heirs. At that point, someone would have to make good on the $2000. In addition, they can garnish his wages and/or tax refunds to get it. I hear eventually maybe money is great for paying the bills today. > [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > I think you’ve read and understand my own position. I understand your position. I also think it’s very focused on your feelings versus the reality of the situation. > [@](#): > > Do you really want me to answer your second set of questions? Yes. But, honestly, I don’t expect to get what I would consider to be decent answers out of you or anyone else who shares your position. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369/80 "2010-10-08T18:34:11Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I understand your position. I also think it’s very focused on your feelings versus the reality of the situation. And I find that an odd criticism. After all, asking “should” is to ask for a normative opinion. Specifically, not a “what is?” (i.e., “what’s the reality of the situation?”) but a “what ought?” (i.e., “how ought things be?”). A purely subjective question, IMHO. > [@](#): > > Yes. But, honestly, I don’t expect to get what I would consider to be decent answers out of you or anyone else who shares your position. Ah, never mind then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/politics-cranick-and-the-firefighters-who-let-his-house-burn/556369.md?page=5)